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Thread: Politics, Religion and Shopping

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    Member Shimmershadow's Avatar
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    Default Politics, Religion and Shopping

    By a somewhat roundabout method, I got to thinking very heavily today about how I use my dollar as my voice, and I was wondering how other Geeks see things on this matter. I'm feeling a bit guilty as I do enjoy my Noodler's Inks, and I plan on buying more, but I don't exactly cotton to Mr. Tardiff's politics, or the fact that he uses his product as a soapbox. It's certainly his right to, I'm not disputing that. However, I'm the sort of person who will not shop at Hobby Lobby or Wal-Mart because I find their politics and practices abhorrent; I won't eat at Papa John's because I think John Schnatter is a wretch. (Also, I live in NJ, and eating chain pizza is grounds for execution.) These are great big chains though, and they carry lots of different products that can be gotten elsewhere (aside from the pizza of course.) Noodler's is a tiny, tiny business, and although I can get a whole lot of ink colors elsewhere, some might not be dead-on, some might not be as colorfast, etc. It's a good product at a good price. Not for nothing, I've heard that Mr. Tardiff himself is everything from a "bit of a character" to "FBBSC", and I've known more small shops owners and crafters who fall on that spectrum than you can shake a stick at, and while they might be awkward-to-definitely nuts, they make awesome stuff. They just aren't terribly likely to be taken seriously outside of whatever it is they produce.

    What do you think? Do you speak your mind with your spending? If you do, where you draw the line, if at all?

    (Please note: I'm not interested in turning this into a Red v. Blue smackdown or debating personal politics; I don't care what your personal politics are. I am curious as to how you shop with them. Worm can opened!)
    "Feri ando payi sitsholpe te nauyas"
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    Senior Member Waski_the_Squirrel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    Uh...ok

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    Senior Member snedwos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    I don't have a problem with his politics since I don't view them as abhorrent, merely incorrect. Unlike Hobby Lobby, for example.
    "What are moon-letters?" asked the hobbit full of excitement. He loved maps, as I have told you before; and he also loved runes and letters, and cunning handwriting, though when he wrote himself it was a bit thin and spidery.

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    Default Politics, Religion and Shopping

    If a person is in business and let their politics or religious stands known, then their gain or loss of business is of their own doing.
    I see it as an issue of Ego rather than Conviction.
    Last edited by johnus; August 4th, 2014 at 05:00 AM.

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    Senior Member snedwos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    Quote Originally Posted by johnus View Post
    If a person is in business and let their politics or religious stands known, then their gain or loss of business is of their own doing.
    I see it as an issue of Ego rather than Conviction.
    I think he would agree with you. And yes, I'm pretty sure his ego wouldn't fit in my pocket...
    "What are moon-letters?" asked the hobbit full of excitement. He loved maps, as I have told you before; and he also loved runes and letters, and cunning handwriting, though when he wrote himself it was a bit thin and spidery.

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    Senior Member pengeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    I'm one that doesn't shop at Wal-Mart because I've known people that have worked there
    and have described to me the (un)organized chaos that results from an "I-don't-care" attitude that
    trickles down from the top(at least Target seems to be more organized and friendly). I have no pro-
    blem w/Nathan and Noodler's inks,except that I get an occasional ink that is too saturated and bleeds
    profusely when it hits the paper.


    John

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    Senior Member oldstoat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    Well on this side of the pond, I won't buy from Primark or Matalan because their exploitative attitudes to the workers in the third world who produce their goods. I won't but Israeli produce because I find Israel's attitude towards the Palestinians horrible. I won't buy battery-farmed eggs, chicken or pork.

    Whether I'd find any individual CEO's politics sufficiently offensive to stop me buying from their company....I don't know. If they were open supporters of the BNP, I wouldn't buy, but otherwise I mihght not object.
    Some days, it's hardly worth chewing through the leather straps....

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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    There is shopping that has the potential to change big things, and the shopping that doesn't, and I think probably voting with your dollars can be a different issue depending on which.

    If you don't like the politics of the owner of a one-person business, the question is is your support by buying his product making him more able to promote his agenda. I could be wrong, but I sort of think Mr. Tardiff is going to do exactly what he is going to do and I doubt the number of people who buy Noodler's inks is ever going to be enough to materially change the things he can do, so I doubt one is causing any great harm in buying them, whether they agree with him or not. In practical terms, not an issue.

    In terms of a large business, such as Wal-Mart or Hobby Lobby, there is more of a possibility of changing the lives of more t people by some kind of economic protest if enough individuals participate, so if there is a large protest going on against a big company, and you are against their policies, going along with the protest has a practical impact. One person not buying stuff at Wal-Mart has no practical results, but Wal-Mart being big, it has news value, news media picking up on a protest and spreading the word, people getting on board - this can have an accumulating affect that can lead to change.

    The effect on yourself of lending any financial support, however slight, to something that you disagree with is a different story. If you feel like a sell-out for buying Noodler's inks, then perhaps you are being more true to yourself not buying them - if you think it makes you a bad person to buy at Wal-Mart, you probably shouldn't shop there, and this is a matter of being true to your values, rather than a matter of hoping that voting with your wallet will change things. If you want the world to change, it does make logical sense to begin with yourself, and if you do not, you can hardly expect the world to change.

    A big problem I have is that when you look at everything - and I do mean everything, where is there any peace? How many companies are there that do not exploit something in a way that some thinking person might consider objectionable? How many of those are only able to exist because of a class of people who have excess money, in which case, how did they earn that money? Those things which are most useful to society are often the worst paying, and those things which cause great harm are often cash cows.

    I find a lot of disconnects in modern virtuism. Nothing is perfect, no one is perfect, and even if they were the definition of perfect varies from one person to another more than, probably, it ever has before in human history. You take your picks. You do your best. You go with your biggest issues in the biggest way you can, I suppose, and you live with the rest.

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    Senior Member Ernst Bitterman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmershadow View Post
    By a somewhat roundabout method, I got to thinking very heavily today about how I use my dollar as my voice, and I was wondering how other Geeks see things on this matter. I'm feeling a bit guilty as I do enjoy my Noodler's Inks, and I plan on buying more, but I don't exactly cotton to Mr. Tardiff's politics, or the fact that he uses his product as a soapbox....

    What do you think? Do you speak your mind with your spending? If you do, where you draw the line, if at all?)
    I'm of a similar mind to you, in the specific instance and on the general topic. I've not set foot in Walmart in at least a decade, and I've spent more than is fashionable on a Lamy 2000 because a local shop carries Lamy (or rather THE local shop, so far as FP availability goes), despite having the sort of income that suggests shopping wherever the prices are LOOOOW and not buying FPs at all beyond just one. I think it is an analog rather than a binary activity, though. The equation is something like: IF {behavior I find objectionable} < {certain arbitrary limit} AND ({product quality} + {product value} - {product mark-up}) + {relative smallness of operation} > {different arbitrary limit} THEN go ahead and spend there. Since there's some wobble in my arbitrary limits, I might find myself in certain borderline cases to go ahead one day but balk the next.

    Also, to the specific: while in many cases I don't agree with the Tardiff position (but not all, I find with some self-directed amusement), I find the fact that he doesn't conceal his opinions is a mark in his favour. He must know there's some people who will say, "I cannot give someone who thinks that any money!" and to let it be known that he thinks like that regardless at least shows conviction in the stance. I might not accept his stance, but I also know that it is sometimes very hard to choke back the declaration of position (there's a thread or two in this forum that proves my own inability). It's ego and conviction, I'd say, and at least it's out in the open.

    I doubt it is a serious consideration, up to a certain point; with a big enough market, the people who flee from your monstrous politics will be replaced by those who embrace them. That certain point would be something like "BigStorE CEO Wally Pessimel announces proud support for NAMBLA, marches in parade." Short of that, though... I'll wager Hobby Lobby's sales haven't changed much from the previous levels.

    I'm still not shopping at Walmart.
    Given to daily lunatic raving, but also capable of more prolonged pen-centricity.

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    Senior Member pengeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    There is another facet to consider--so many companies have been bought out by others
    that one may not like that interlocking directorates that have been formed. As such,it becomes confusing
    to figure out who controls what anymore. If there is a company one is against,a little digging is in order.


    John
    Last edited by pengeezer; August 10th, 2014 at 09:49 AM.

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    Senior Member LagNut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    I won't shop at Walmart myself. But the ironies of this is not lost on me. A relative whose pension would not exist if he worked there does, partially because he is on a pension.

    With Mr Tardiff, I will still buy from him though he is so out to lunch in his political beliefs I'm amazed he can string two sentences together. By the same token, I know a lot of folks who are in the same strain. And they are otherwise on the ball.

    The critical difference to me is I don't see Nathan actively destroying unions as part of his business plan.

    And this is from someone who grew up not a fan of unions.

    Somehow, the destruction of our middle class turned me. Unions aren't perfect, but they are necessary in a capitalist society, and I do like capitalism.
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    Quote Originally Posted by oldstoat View Post
    Well on this side of the pond, I won't buy from Primark or Matalan because their exploitative attitudes to the workers in the third world who produce their goods. I won't but Israeli produce because I find Israel's attitude towards the Palestinians horrible. I won't buy battery-farmed eggs, chicken or pork.

    Whether I'd find any individual CEO's politics sufficiently offensive to stop me buying from their company....I don't know. If they were open supporters of the BNP, I wouldn't buy, but otherwise I mihght not object.
    If Israels enemies put down their weapons there will be peace. If Israel puts down her weapons, she will cease to exist.

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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    I don't know anything about politics and religion and largely don't care what goes on in people's heads. That said, I do everything I can avoid spending my money in Pakistan, and as of a couple months ago, have terminated all contracts with India until they sort their rape culture out.

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    Senior Member Scrawler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmershadow View Post
    . . .<snip> I've heard that Mr. Tardiff himself is everything from a "bit of a character" to "FBBSC", and I've known more small shops owners and crafters who fall on that spectrum . . .<snip>
    What is FBBSC?

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    Senior Member snedwos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawler View Post
    I don't know anything about politics and religion and largely don't care what goes on in people's heads. That said, I do everything I can avoid spending my money in Pakistan, and as of a couple months ago, have terminated all contracts with India until they sort their rape culture out.
    See, I admire the sentiment, but I also wonder if the best way to help India move forward as a nation is to hurt their economy. As India becomes more affluent, I believe it will become more liberal as citizens (both men and women, bit especially girls and boys) get access to more and better education.

    The only way of ending rape culture is education, not punishment.

    The more Indians who can afford the internet, the more Indians will be exposed to new ideas. That does of course also mean more access to rapey porn, but every silver lining has a dark and brooding cumulonimbus...
    "What are moon-letters?" asked the hobbit full of excitement. He loved maps, as I have told you before; and he also loved runes and letters, and cunning handwriting, though when he wrote himself it was a bit thin and spidery.

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    Senior Member Scrawler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    Quote Originally Posted by snedwos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawler View Post
    I don't know anything about politics and religion and largely don't care what goes on in people's heads. That said, I do everything I can avoid spending my money in Pakistan, and as of a couple months ago, have terminated all contracts with India until they sort their rape culture out.
    See, I admire the sentiment, but I also wonder if the best way to help India move forward as a nation is to hurt their economy. As India becomes more affluent, I believe it will become more liberal as citizens (both men and women, bit especially girls and boys) get access to more and better education.

    The only way of ending rape culture is education, not punishment.

    The more Indians who can afford the internet, the more Indians will be exposed to new ideas. That does of course also mean more access to rapey porn, but every silver lining has a dark and brooding cumulonimbus...
    This is not about punishing India. My small boycott will do nothing. This is about getting a message to the more influential and wealthier citizens that we do not approve of what is permitted in their country, and they if they wish to be regarded as worthy and honourable business partners, they need to be addressing this issue openly.

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    Member Shimmershadow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmershadow View Post
    . . .<snip> I've heard that Mr. Tardiff himself is everything from a "bit of a character" to "FBBSC", and I've known more small shops owners and crafters who fall on that spectrum . . .<snip>
    What is FBBSC?
    Full-Blown Bat-Shit Crazy.
    "Feri ando payi sitsholpe te nauyas"
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    Lovara saying

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    ― Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell

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    Senior Member Scrawler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmershadow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmershadow View Post
    . . .<snip> I've heard that Mr. Tardiff himself is everything from a "bit of a character" to "FBBSC", and I've known more small shops owners and crafters who fall on that spectrum . . .<snip>
    What is FBBSC?
    Full-Blown Bat-Shit Crazy.
    Wow. First time I have heard that people think he is insane. Well I don't care, any more than I care about van Gogh being a nutter, I still like his paintings.

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    Senior Member stevekolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    Yeah, we pretty much avoid spending any of our hard earned money with any companies etc. that we actively disagree with, and will not support, or pay to see any movies/shows by entertainers/actors that do the same.

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    Default Re: Politics, Religion and Shopping

    Quote Originally Posted by stevekolt View Post
    Yeah, we pretty much avoid spending any of our hard earned money with any companies etc. that we actively disagree with, and will not support, or pay to see any movies/shows by entertainers/actors that do the same.
    Many times i buy online but, never seen before customer friendly policy like lootlo

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