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Thread: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    There is a fairly high proportion of Americans who believe the US has become an immoral society. I tend to agree with them but perhaps we might differ slightly on specifics of the Great Obscenities that characterize and define the USA today and so I thought it might be productive to present for discussion what I see as the Great Obscenities in the US.

    The first is the idea that profit should be the primary motivator and driving force for innovation and the second is that the purpose of the education system should be to train and prepare workers.

    I cannot think of many things that are more obscene, immoral and destructive than those two fallacies.

    Next is the idea that a corporation is a person and that money is equivalent to speech.

    Next is the fallacy that health care, utilities and services like police, prisons, fire, roads, bridges or communication systems should be unregulated and profit driven.

    Finally, the idea that beliefs that are simply refuted by facts and reality should be respected. In particular, the Christian Cult of Ignorance (remember I am a Christian and so not denigrating all Christians) as seen in the US with their avoidance school systems should be recognized for just what it really is. They should be allowed to hold their beliefs as silly as they might be but not to insert those beliefs into government, education, social policy or law.

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    Senior Member snedwos's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    For me, it is the Greatest Lie Ever Told: That poor people somehow all deserve to be poor. This is bullshit.

    Jar, I agree with every single point you have made.
    "What are moon-letters?" asked the hobbit full of excitement. He loved maps, as I have told you before; and he also loved runes and letters, and cunning handwriting, though when he wrote himself it was a bit thin and spidery.

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    And worse, these Great Obscentities are pervasive and their malign influence is spreading over the Pond.

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by snedwos View Post
    For me, it is the Greatest Lie Ever Told: That poor people somehow all deserve to be poor. This is bullshit.

    Jar, I agree with every single point you have made.
    True,poor people don't deserve to be poor, but some folks insist on living that way(for various reasons).


    John

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    Senior Member snedwos's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Far far fewer people than you might think.
    "What are moon-letters?" asked the hobbit full of excitement. He loved maps, as I have told you before; and he also loved runes and letters, and cunning handwriting, though when he wrote himself it was a bit thin and spidery.

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Bravo Jar!! We face a lot of the same obscenities here in Australia, not surprising as our Govts. look to the US for "inspiration". While identifying the issues is good it's fixing them that's near impossible.

    Regards
    Hugh

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by snedwos View Post
    Far far fewer people than you might think.
    "I've been poor, very, very poor. I've been rich, very, very rich. I prefer to be rich" - Michael Cain, British actor (iirc).

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by HughC View Post
    Bravo Jar!! We face a lot of the same obscenities here in Australia, not surprising as our Govts. look to the US for "inspiration". While identifying the issues is good it's fixing them that's near impossible.

    Regards
    Hugh
    I fear greatly that it is now (after the latest SCOTUS ruling) too late to do anything for the US. We are headed straight for third world Fascist Oligarchy if we are not already there. However the US can stand as a warning to those nations still considered First world and to emerging nations.

    This is not unexpected at all and as early as Theodore Roosevelt we were warned about this.

    The solutions are actually pretty simple but since the US decided not to educate an electorate it unlikely we could implement those solutions.

    The problem is that it would take at least two generations to educate an electorate and I am not sure that even with the will to do that we have the time.

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    Senior Member 85AKbN's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    I believe we are over regulated. That we should be free to choose.

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by 85AKbN View Post
    I believe we are over regulated. That we should be free to choose.
    Sorry but that is a empty statement. Where are we over regulated? What should we be free to choose?

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 85AKbN View Post
    I believe we are over regulated. That we should be free to choose.
    Sorry but that is a empty statement. Where are we over regulated? What should we be free to choose?
    You've got to watch the series to get your answer.

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by 85AKbN View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 85AKbN View Post
    I believe we are over regulated. That we should be free to choose.
    Sorry but that is a empty statement. Where are we over regulated? What should we be free to choose?
    You've got to watch the series to get your answer.
    But we are discussing it here and I don't know anyway to discuss with Milton or a video.

    Sorry but them's the facts.

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    Senior Member 85AKbN's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 85AKbN View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 85AKbN View Post
    I believe we are over regulated. That we should be free to choose.
    Sorry but that is a empty statement. Where are we over regulated? What should we be free to choose?
    You've got to watch the series to get your answer.
    But we are discussing it here and I don't know anyway to discuss with Milton or a video.

    Sorry but them's the facts.
    It is a watch then discuss type situation.

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by 85AKbN View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 85AKbN View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 85AKbN View Post
    I believe we are over regulated. That we should be free to choose.
    Sorry but that is a empty statement. Where are we over regulated? What should we be free to choose?
    You've got to watch the series to get your answer.
    But we are discussing it here and I don't know anyway to discuss with Milton or a video.

    Sorry but them's the facts.
    It is a watch then discuss type situation.
    It is a bring Milton here or present the specifics. Sorry but watch and disc8uss may work for movies but not for a discussion thread. Don't waste my time with links to videos.

    The idea that the goal of life revolves around economics or that what is good for an economy is good for society or an individual is a big part of the problems with the US.

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    Senior Member 85AKbN's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 85AKbN View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 85AKbN View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 85AKbN View Post
    I believe we are over regulated. That we should be free to choose.
    Sorry but that is a empty statement. Where are we over regulated? What should we be free to choose?
    You've got to watch the series to get your answer.
    But we are discussing it here and I don't know anyway to discuss with Milton or a video.

    Sorry but them's the facts.
    It is a watch then discuss type situation.
    It is a bring Milton here or present the specifics. Sorry but watch and disc8uss may work for movies but not for a discussion thread. Don't waste my time with links to videos.

    The idea that the goal of life revolves around economics or that what is good for an economy is good for society or an individual is a big part of the problems with the US.
    I don't see capitalism as being a problem for the United States. I see many solutions brought about by capitalism.

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by 85AKbN View Post
    I don't see capitalism as being a problem for the United States. I see many solutions brought about by capitalism.
    Perhaps you could provide some examples.

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    Senior Member LagNut's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Fantastic thread.

    First, while I agree that the issues you raise are among the worst problems we face, I absolutely don't think it is anywhere near to "too late".

    I do love capitalism for the areas where it does work, and I do agree with your list of where it is, as someone put it, " saddling a cow".

    I just wish we didn't have to re learn what we learned in the 1890's and 1930's. I'd love the us I grew up with in the 60's, for all its flaws.
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by LagNut View Post
    Fantastic thread.

    First, while I agree that the issues you raise are among the worst problems we face, I absolutely don't think it is anywhere near to "too late".

    I do love capitalism for the areas where it does work, and I do agree with your list of where it is, as someone put it, " saddling a cow".

    I just wish we didn't have to re learn what we learned in the 1890's and 1930's. I'd love the us I grew up with in the 60's, for all its flaws.
    The problem is that particularly in the US we do not teach history; for example that the US of the 50s and 60s was an aberration because we had just destroyed much of the manufacturing, communications and transportation as well as the underlying infrastructure of most areas other than North and South America and so the US in particular faced decreased competition from the other industrialized nations as we profited from rebuilding what had been destroyed.

    Capitalism is certainly one tool to be used but it is not the answer to every question. Here are three examples of Capitalism from the period of WWII.




    Note that the date on the lower right coin is 1941.

    When we do not teach the errors of the 1830s, 1860s, 1890s, 1930s we cannot expect folk not to repeat the errors.
    Last edited by jar; April 10th, 2014 at 01:26 PM.

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    Senior Member LagNut's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Amen, though at least in CA there is a bit of history required to graduate, same as when I grew up (in MT).

    Are there states where US, world, and state history are not required?

    Granted the quality is another matter. I'm intrigued by the lack of what I would consider basic knowledge in young people I meet at work. At times it is astounding, but again, some of this is just unwillingness to learn though you'd think some of it should at least ring a bell.

    On that note, I was aware there was rationing during the war, but I'd never seen metal chits like that before. I'd always heard of coupons. The 41 date is intriguing too. One month into the war and coins(?) are minted...

    Are there states without history requirements? I know I was surprised to fond that CA removed its geography requirement for high school.
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

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    Senior Member carlos.q's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    I find this thread fascinating.

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