Greg Minuskin - Quite disappointed

[david i]

Crass, much?

Poprocks much?

[Farmboy]

Tactic 7 from the Losing Debater's Manual: Lie.

I do invite evidence that I am essentially the man who thanks anyone (subset, "Greg") can do no wrong.

Tactic 5 from the Losing Debaters Manual: The Telepath: When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, profess to know the motivations, prejudices, psyche, state of mind, and so forth, of your issues-oriented opponent.

Note that I am not saying that all customers are angels and only vendors can do wrong.

Hmmm... one wonders if anyone would say that all customers are angels and only vendors can do wrong. What a weird thing to have to deny.

What I'm saying is that David's highly obvious biases are just that: biases.

Tactic 5 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, profess to know the motivations, prejudices, psyche, state of mind, and so forth, of your issues-oriented opponent"

Just as the OP refuses to see how he might have contributed to and indeed exacerbated the ugly situation. Indeed, what was offensive about the last series of communications posted? Virtually nothing. However, for most reasonable souls on this board, it is entirely possible to take the vendor, the OP and David with large mounds of salt (as I have).

Tactic 48 from the LDM: "When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, invest in salt.

Insulting the vendor to no end -- and in the case of David, insulting everyone who does not agree with him -- simply reflects very badly on them. If anything, all three come out (again, my opinion, no one has to like or share it) smelling like rubbish.

Tactic 41 from the LDM: "When you having nothing of substance to offer in debate, bleat about insults"

Tactic 1 from the LDM: "Ad Hominem insult"

And of course, these vendors should perhaps make a note on their respective websites: I won't sell to anyone who wants to be handled with professionalism.

Tactic 23 from the LDM: When you have nothing to substance to offer in debate, profess to instruct your opponents on how they should conduct themselves. Excellent.

As for vintage pens, the idea that vintage pens is some kind of hallowed club only for the elite and exclusive -- or those willing to be brutalized in a transaction -- is not something I can get behind.

Tactic 4 from the LDM: When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, attempt to distract via the Straw Man.

(Whether or not vintage pens are a hallowed club only for the exlusive or elite, or whether, no one has asserted this and no one has provided evidence for it, and in any case it has nothing to do with Original Post writer's situation).

Too, I invite evidence that anyone has been brutalized ever via the process of doing a pen transaction. Hospital records are invited.

No doubt there are technical aspects to it, as there are to a good many things, but why should that lead to the creation of some mythical world full of culture and good pens? To be blunt, I roll my eyes.

I invite evidence that creation of a mythical world has been asserted in this conversation. Just sayin'...

regards

-d

Where can one get a copy of the Losing Debater's Manual?

People seem to keep asking that.

Perhaps one day soon...

regards

-David

I have tracked down what I believe to be a first or second printing of the first edition in fairly good condition in a dusty used bookstore in the Southwest. Because the asking price is substantial, I need to go see the book before I purchase it. Rest assured, you will not find the store where this treasure is located. Once I have it, I may post scans though the book has undergone many editions since the first.

[david i]

Tactic 7 from the Losing Debater's Manual: Lie.

I do invite evidence that I am essentially the man who thanks anyone (subset, "Greg") can do no wrong.

Tactic 5 from the Losing Debaters Manual: The Telepath: When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, profess to know the motivations, prejudices, psyche, state of mind, and so forth, of your issues-oriented opponent.

Note that I am not saying that all customers are angels and only vendors can do wrong.

Hmmm... one wonders if anyone would say that all customers are angels and only vendors can do wrong. What a weird thing to have to deny.

What I'm saying is that David's highly obvious biases are just that: biases.

Tactic 5 from the Losing Debater's Manual: "When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, profess to know the motivations, prejudices, psyche, state of mind, and so forth, of your issues-oriented opponent"

Just as the OP refuses to see how he might have contributed to and indeed exacerbated the ugly situation. Indeed, what was offensive about the last series of communications posted? Virtually nothing. However, for most reasonable souls on this board, it is entirely possible to take the vendor, the OP and David with large mounds of salt (as I have).

Tactic 48 from the LDM: "When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, invest in salt.

Insulting the vendor to no end -- and in the case of David, insulting everyone who does not agree with him -- simply reflects very badly on them. If anything, all three come out (again, my opinion, no one has to like or share it) smelling like rubbish.

Tactic 41 from the LDM: "When you having nothing of substance to offer in debate, bleat about insults"

Tactic 1 from the LDM: "Ad Hominem insult"

And of course, these vendors should perhaps make a note on their respective websites: I won't sell to anyone who wants to be handled with professionalism.

Tactic 23 from the LDM: When you have nothing to substance to offer in debate, profess to instruct your opponents on how they should conduct themselves. Excellent.

As for vintage pens, the idea that vintage pens is some kind of hallowed club only for the elite and exclusive -- or those willing to be brutalized in a transaction -- is not something I can get behind.

Tactic 4 from the LDM: When you have nothing of substance to offer in debate, attempt to distract via the Straw Man.

(Whether or not vintage pens are a hallowed club only for the exlusive or elite, or whether, no one has asserted this and no one has provided evidence for it, and in any case it has nothing to do with Original Post writer's situation).

Too, I invite evidence that anyone has been brutalized ever via the process of doing a pen transaction. Hospital records are invited.

No doubt there are technical aspects to it, as there are to a good many things, but why should that lead to the creation of some mythical world full of culture and good pens? To be blunt, I roll my eyes.

I invite evidence that creation of a mythical world has been asserted in this conversation. Just sayin'...

regards

-d

Where can one get a copy of the Losing Debater's Manual?

People seem to keep asking that.

Perhaps one day soon...

regards

-David

I have tracked down what I believe to be a first or second printing of the first edition in fairly good condition in a dusty used bookstore in the Southwest. Because the asking price is substantial, I need to go see the book before I purchase it. Rest assured, you will not find the store where this treasure is located. Once I have it, I may post scans though the book has undergone many editions since the first.

Hey as long as it's in the public domain, please do share. It'll spare me some work. Besides... i'm a big believer in distributing public domain material

-d

[Deb]

Stop. feeding. the. troll.

[Neo]

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.

George Bernard Shaw

[Finalist]

Tactic 254 from the Winner's Debating Manual:

Sometimes you have to shout loudly only one time, and people will get your point.

[mhosea]

After a quarter century of this online discussion nonsense, I've developed some informal guidelines when I'm engaged in internet debates. They developed as defensive mechanisms to keep me from being emotionally consumed. Unfortunately, I've never bothered to formalize them, but anyway, mine might not work for everyone. It seems to me that there might be a market for a book that studies effective strategies for communicating in internet forums. One of the things that I'm sure would be in there is avoiding more than two quotes from the same response. Point-counterpoint style debating in batch mode is too tedious for most onlookers and frequently, I fear, even for some of those participating in the debate. I stopped doing it when I realized that even the person I was arguing with was not taking the time to read my responses. You really don't want to start writing things that nobody (else) reads.

[david i]

Stop. feeding. the. troll.

Where?

-d

[david i]

Tactic 254 from the Winner's Debating Manual:

Sometimes you have to shout loudly only one time, and people will get your point.

Actually, that's not Tactic 254, but it is grand to see the word getting out

-d

[david i]

After a quarter century of this online discussion nonsense, I've developed some informal guidelines when I'm engaged in internet debates. They developed as defensive mechanisms to keep me from being emotionally consumed. Unfortunately, I've never bothered to formalize them, but anyway, mine might not work for everyone. It seems to me that there might be a market for a book that studies effective strategies for communicating in internet forums. One of the things that I'm sure would be in there is avoiding more than two quotes from the same response. Point-counterpoint style debating in batch mode is too tedious for most onlookers and frequently, I fear, even for some of those participating in the debate. I stopped doing it when I realized that even the person I was arguing with was not taking the time to read my responses. You really don't want to start writing things that nobody (else) reads.

That could well be true, but then often those who don't want to step up to the plate are welcome not to.

I'm ready though for someone to use Tactic 2 from the LDM. A bit surprised no one went there.

regads

-d

[Finalist]

This isn't even fun anymore. I miss the Greg talk.

[david i]

This isn't even fun anymore. I miss the Greg talk.

Greg talk it is...

This one soon will go to Greg, one of just a handful of nib retippers on the planet.

Parker Duofold Senior. 1930-ish. Well preserved black-and-pearl color. Big Duofold nib that has lost it "iridium" tipping.



regards

-d

[david i]

So, "Greg Talk"

Someone had mentioned anecdotes.

Ok.

Anecdote.

So, I was at the Los Angeles Pen Show this year. Hack-Amateur-Newbie Davey. 15th year there. My status of wee dabbler in pendom notwithstanding, I do pretty big business at LA. Tends to be in my top couple sales shows each year, and with careful buying, usually en masse, the last couple years I've dropped $15k or so on up to 200 pens each year. I've picked up everything from prototype Parker Vacumatics to Sheaffer Levenger transparent Connaisseurs, the latter by the fistful. It's one of the best shows for the culture-of-pendom: nice climate, great food in walking distance, huge lounge with couches and adjacent bar, the works.

I tend to get a bit discombobulated at the shows. Lack of sleep. Kid in candy store. Sensory overload. Zillions of pens to screen to find a few for my collection and a hundred for the website. A wonderful thing, truly.

So. I had bought fifteen pens from a collector who was liquidating. As we were wrapping up, I spotted a Wahl-Eversharp Skyline Executive set in box. The Executive is the oversized Skyline. It is scarce, more scarce in general than period Parker and Sheaffer oversized pens. Often it is missed as it looks very similar to the standard model. I asked price and he tossed it in at $100. The set is a $400+ item. I bought it.

Few hours later, I was sitting at my table, next to Mike Dvoretz, with whom I've roomed at the show since 2000. I was sharing the finds from the last few hours and realized I could not find the Executive set. Checked "everywhere". No luck. Not first time I've lost something at a pen show. I have habit of-- even with my battle vest in play, loaded with pens-- carrying pens, sets, loupes in hand, putting them down at sales tables when looking at fresh pens, then forgetting them.

So, I made an announcement overhead about the missing set.

Figure 10 minutes later Doug Berg pops over to my table. Figure earlier in the day we'd been discussing leaving pens at tables at pen shows. I've bought some great pens from Doug over the years, and he manages even now to come up with killer pens. He grins and makes an appropriately sarcastic comment about discombobulation at pen shows, then notes that an hour earlier his tablemate- Greg- said, "Hey, what's this Wahl set. Is it yours?". Doug and Greg realized neither of them had brought the set. Doug knew enough about Wahl to identify it as an Executive, not just a typical Skyline. I'd been there hours earlier gabbing about collecting/repairing/dealing in old pens.

Greg could have kept the set. No one would have known.

And, now, damnit, I need to find and photograph that set, to lend image to story. But, with arranging thousands of pens in the new cabinet this week, not sure I can find it.

regards

-d

[Jon Szanto]

At the SF Pen Show in August, I was making my last rounds before getting in the car and hitting the road for 7 hours. This included a last chat with Paul Erano, with whom I had a number of good visits during the 3 days. I soon left, and was about 2 hours out, partway down I-5 in the Central Valley, when a text came in...

Good friend Loren asking "Are you missing a pen case... with 3 pens in it?"

Yes, I had left my Nock case with three of the purchases from the show (new Skyline from Syd, killer 51 from John Strother, a wild Ranga/Sheaffer hybrid from Teri Morris) sitting on Paul's table. He started asking around, eventually landing both Greg W. and (I believe) Gary N., who then got to Loren (these three are all good friends from the Pen Posse). They hung onto it. They took all my pens to a Posse and everyone played with them... but in doing so, completely filled a Steve Curnow "Backpocket Journal" with birthday wishes for me! After that, dear Loren mailed it appropriately, only to have the idiots in one of the LA USPS distribution centers send it to... Madison, WI. A *very* helpful local USPS manager stopped what he was doing, went into his office and emailed Madison, they located it, and got it going back in the right direction. Including showing up while I was out of town, and we managed to get them to hold it (instead of having a few hundred dollars in pens sitting on my porch). I got home, collected the package, and saw the wonderful booklet and greetings.

They are all good people. There are a lot of good people out there, and many of them are involved in pens.

[pengeezer]

This isn't even fun anymore. I miss the Greg talk.

Greg talk it is...

This one soon will go to Greg, one of just a handful of nib retippers on the planet.

Parker Duofold Senior. 1930-ish. Well preserved black-and-pearl color. Big Duofold nib that has lost it "iridium" tipping.



regards

-d

So are you keeping this one,or will it be up for sale?


John

[david i]

HI John,

I'm keeping that one until the if/when I manage to score one with even better color, which might be a bit. I have a couple of this sort in the pipeline though, a bit darker but still ok, for what will be well lower cost.

regards

david

[pengeezer]

HI John,

I'm keeping that one until the if/when I manage to score one with even better color, which might be a bit. I have a couple of this sort in the pipeline though, a bit darker but still ok, for what will be well lower cost.

regards

david

I figured as much. Any Chilton Long Island pens in the bunch you have to go thru?



John

[david i]

HI John,

I'm keeping that one until the if/when I manage to score one with even better color, which might be a bit. I have a couple of this sort in the pipeline though, a bit darker but still ok, for what will be well lower cost.

regards

david

I figured as much. Any Chilton Long Island pens in the bunch you have to go thru?



John

Yep. Very clean pen in black celluloid. That one can be available.

regards

david

[welch]

However, maybe "looking at it funny" was not the best way to go about things. He might have thought the OP was simply trying to cause trouble. In any case, it's best to be literal and clear when corresponding with a vendor about possible issues in the product.

This.

The one, true way you can come out smelling like roses in any kind of retail transaction dispute is put all emotion and drama aside, and speak in a calm and business-like manner. Especially in electronic communication, the need for leaving out any hint of irony, humor, sarcasm, etc is so important - unless the person knows you well, a phrase that would cause both of you to chuckle if you were eye-to-eye can easily be misconstrued. Be plain, speak facts, get stuff accomplished.

We used to say, "Electronic communication is a high-contrast medium", and our division of GE (Information Services) probably invented email and a few other things: time-sharing, global data networks, "networked based computing" -- now called "cloud computing". Our rule was to write in a neutral tone, especially since we were a global corporation.

Greg is among the very best nib-artisans. Example: I sent him a Parker 100 after I dropped it, nib down, on a hard floor. Greg examined it, and refused to repair it, saying, "The nib is too damaged. I can't fix it in a way that would make you happy". Anyone who turns down business has a high ethical standard. I have used Mike Masuyama, Tim Girdler, Greg, Pendleton Brown, and Richard Binder. They are all very good.

[kirchh]

...our division of GE (Information Services) probably invented email and a few other things: time-sharing, global data networks, "networked based computing" -- now called "cloud computing".

Not my understanding, though support for these claims is welcomed.

--Daniel
P.S. Still have the Parker 100?