Greg Minuskin - Quite disappointed

[Cob]

It seems that I may be (once again) a minority of one, in having rather old-fashioned views about how customers and clients should be treated.

I have been on both sides - and I know how infuriatingly stupid, unreasonable and dense customers and clients can be, but the old saying "The customer is always right" still holds water in my view and should do, however tedious the process may be for the trader.

Cob

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Just a small point: in a professional environment my manner of response is not dictated by the mode of address made to me. If a client or customer is flippant. I remain professional. If a patient assumes an overly familiar tone. I remain professional. I do have to deal with people who are less than happy. I remain professional, courteous and attentive. Perhaps I set my own bar too high?

[david i]

It seems that I may be (once again) a minority of one, in having rather old-fashioned views about how customers and clients should be treated.

I have been on both sides - and I know how infuriatingly stupid, unreasonable and dense customers and clients can be, but the old saying "The customer is always right" still holds water in my view and should do, however tedious the process may be for the trader.

Cob

Actually, it is quite clear that the customer is not always right.

regards

David

[sharmon202]

Mhosea--thanks so much for the YouTube link. I enjoyed the 3 minutes and your humor in your interpretation in this continuing argument.

[Deb]

It seems that I may be (once again) a minority of one, in having rather old-fashioned views about how customers and clients should be treated.

I have been on both sides - and I know how infuriatingly stupid, unreasonable and dense customers and clients can be, but the old saying "The customer is always right" still holds water in my view and should do, however tedious the process may be for the trader.

Cob

I don't think you are. Apart from anything else it's sound business practice to be courteous and to ensure that the customer goes away satisfied. To put it another way, it isn't sensible to antagonise your customer, as is made clear by this thread.

[View from the Loft]

Actually, it is quite clear that the customer is not always right.

regards

David

While I concur that the customer may not always be factually correct, the customer should always be treated courteously. And the customer should reciprocate in treating the trader with courtesy.

I think that reasonable people will accept that there will be the odd transaction that does not go as expected first time, it is how the trader responds that determines whether the transaction is a good one or not.

In my personal opinion - and I accept that this will not be shared by others - neither party to this transaction covered themselves in glory with this one.

[sharmon202]

Actually, it is quite clear that the customer is not always right.

regards

David

While I concur that the customer may not always be factually correct, the customer should always be treated courteously. And the customer should reciprocate in treating the trader with courtesy.

I think that reasonable people will accept that there will be the odd transaction that does not go as expected first time, it is how the trader responds that determines whether the transaction is a good one or not.

In my personal opinion - and I accept that this will not be shared by others - neither party to this transaction covered themselves in glory with this one.

Amen to that!

[david i]

Situations such as this actually serve as great public service, to warn many who sell and trade in pens and related material and services as to which rare customer to avoid.

Everyone should be treated courteously. First, do no harm. Greg did no harm. His customer has tried to do harm. Pithy bromides often have value pretty much only for their pith, and "the customer is always right" is pretty pithy.

regards

-d

[ksh]

The customer may not always be right, but that is not an excuse for a merchant to treat a customer like garbage -- which also has been my experience with Mr. Minuskin. Polite inquiries met with abrupt, who needs you, responses. I will spend my money elsewhere.

[Deb]

Situations such as this actually serve as great public service, to warn many who sell and trade in pens and related material and services as to which rare customer to avoid.

Everyone should be treated courteously. First, do no harm. Greg did no harm. His customer has tried to do harm. Pithy bromides often have value pretty much only for their pith, and "the customer is always right" is pretty pithy.

regards

-d

I admire your loyalty to your friend, David, but I find your point of view doesn't reflect the facts as we have them.

First, turn out a decent product. Second, put it right if it's wrong. Third, why would a seller be unpleasant to a customer? They're the guys who put bread on your table. Unless the seller has developed an aversion to eating, it's a good idea to ensure that the customer is not only happy with what he has bought this time, it would be nice if he came back for more.

[Farmboy]

I recall a sign that hung in the shop long ago. On one side "The customer is always right" was printed in large bold print, printed on the other side was "It just costs some customers more". This has always worked for me though I don't advertise.

To David's point, as a merchant, sometimes you choose to not do business.

FarmBoy

[Jon Szanto]

Bear in mind, we all view these things through the lens of our own perspectives. David is no different in this sense, and I suspect that the way he interacts with people, on both a professional and non-professional level, as well as his relationships to vendors/businesses (such as Greg, in this case), colors his analysis. In the end, it boils down to how each of us would choose to transact business: does being pleasant and somewhat conciliatory facilitate better service? can treating even an abrasive customer generously yield benefits? I know how *I* act in both guises, and I just read all of these posts for future information, because I can't change anyone else.

[david i]

Situations such as this actually serve as great public service, to warn many who sell and trade in pens and related material and services as to which rare customer to avoid.

Everyone should be treated courteously. First, do no harm. Greg did no harm. His customer has tried to do harm. Pithy bromides often have value pretty much only for their pith, and "the customer is always right" is pretty pithy.

regards

-d

I admire your loyalty to your friend, David, but I find your point of view doesn't reflect the facts as we have them.

First, turn out a decent product. Second, put it right if it's wrong. Third, why would a seller be unpleasant to a customer? They're the guys who put bread on your table. Unless the seller has developed an aversion to eating, it's a good idea to ensure that the customer is not only happy with what he has bought this time, it would be nice if he came back for more.

First. Loyalty is irrelevant, indeed a Straw Man.

Second. "Decent product" is irrelevant, as per my prior posts. We can work through them again slowly if necessary.

Third, "Facts as we have them" often merely are opinions.

Fourth, "Unpleasant" is subjective.

Fifth, "Ensure the customer is happy" indeed is an element-- but not an absolute-- of the Game Theory of business.

Sixth, "nice to come back for more", very much is not always the case.

regards

-david

[david i]

The customer may not always be right, but that is not an excuse for a merchant to treat a customer like garbage -- which also has been my experience with Mr. Minuskin. Polite inquiries met with abrupt, who needs you, responses. I will spend my money elsewhere.

Note that KSH engages in slander.

Entertaining, at least.

regards

david

[mhosea]

I recall a sign that hung in the shop long ago. On one side "The customer is always right" was printed in large bold print, printed on the other side was "It just costs some customers more". This has always worked for me though I don't advertise.

That must explain why I paid Greg $99 (plus shipping both ways, of course) to grind a modern 18K western fine nib to a 0.4mm (he insists on this kind of precision) round nib . My alternative was to pay return shipping and get nothing for my trouble. It seemed a little high to me. Still does. I figured it might be because I had openly criticized his position on "boutique" inks, though I might rather have tried his patience when I attempted to emphasize that the precise width did not matter. The problem I was needing to solve was that the tipping had a flat foot on it put there by some previous owner trying to smooth it, and I wasn't even sure that I cared what usable nib shape it should have. If it was the latter, I'm not the only one who has tried his patience in the matter (google "nibadonnas"). I had a couple of other matters that made me go "hmmm", but it is not my intention to complain about it.

Rather, my takeaway from everything I experienced and from some of the similar stories I've read, rightly or wrongly--this is just my impression, is that Greg is sort of the flip side of a high-maintenance customer. That is to say, if you are a customer, you may need to try harder to please this vendor than you normally would. This may be true only for us nobodies out here on the internet. I certainly would have no trouble believing that David I. and Todd E. are given an extra measure of respect. I don't know if he would accept an order from me at this point (probably not now, anyway ), but if I were to ask him to do a crack repair or retipping job, I would be very precise, very brief, and I would not complain about anything after the fact unless the weld flat failed during a time frame in which I was, in fact, still treating it with kid gloves. If I bought a pen from his little marketplace, I would consider it an as-is or return-for-refund sale, i.e. troubleshooting and repair (the restoration "process" that David mentions) not being included in the price. This would not be hard for me to swallow, since I think his prices on that marketplace actually are unrestored prices. This is the kind of customer that I think would make Greg happy, and if you need Greg's skills, you probably want to make him happy because there aren't many viable options for retipping in particular.

I'm just not sure his marketplace a good place for newbies to go when they want to get into vintage pens. For that, I'd tend to recommend a full-service restorer who won't mind helping you troubleshoot issues you have afterwards, whether those issues turn out to require your own adaptation to the pen or are part of the "process" of restoration that David alluded to. I assume that hypochondriacs acquire real diseases at about the same rate as the general population, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you, etc. For the same reasons I think it's only appropriate for a vendor to take the problems that newbies have just as seriously as the problems that experienced people have and to make a good-faith effort to determine if there is anything the vendor should do for the customer. Now if Greg's terms really are "as-is or return for a full-refund, no troubleshooting included", then it would behoove him to make that crystal clear. I don't think it would hurt sales any at his prices, but it might calibrate customer expectations better, and it would give him something to point to on his web site. I think it might have averted this whole incident.

[pajaro]

I have a couple of things that came from Greg Minuskin, and these simple transactions were businesslike.

If I bought something that presented an issue to me, and if the vendor replied to my query that he could sell the product to any number of others, so return it for a refund, I would indeed return it for a refund, and I might well feel that the vendor had been arrogant with the implication that he could sell it to plenty of others. That part of the vendor communication could well and wisely have been omitted by the vendor. It was a dig at the customer, and the result was predictable. Vendors don't have to be courteous or even considerate in the least, but draw your own conclusions about which golden rule was followed, "He who has the gold makes the rules" or "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

[Deb]

First, you do love your Straw Man, David - you drag the poor soul out at every opportunity.
Second, no need to go through your prior posts - they have no greater validity than anyone else's. A pen that "spews ink out" and fills the cap with ink isn't a product that I would be happy to offer to a customer.
Third, facts and opinions are never the same. Consult your dictionary.
Fourth, I agree that "unpleasant" is subjective. Nonetheless, I - and apparently others -find Mr Minuskin's reply to the OP unpleasant. Just because something's subjective doesn't mean it's invalid.
Fifth, I have - very rarely - found a customer who was impossible to deal with. In such a case, I would politely withdraw from the sale. Otherwise, I would do my utmost to ensure that the customer is happy with his purchase. Pluvia's complaint about the condition of the pen he bought hardly seems to me to put him in the category of impossible customer.
Six - you'll need to amplify that one a little, I think.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

In my personal experience of a limited selection of restorers I do note a certain prima donna-esque quality can be present, and I have been put off by a one with a real attitude problem. When a customer questions the quality of a sale or a service it is probably a poor decision on the part of the provider to immediately assume a defensive position. While I agree with some of what David I. has posited I have to remind myself that his views are just that, views, and do not represent any absolute truth in these matters. And of course, despite protestations, his views are very nicely coloured by his own perceptions and experiences of delaing with Mr Minuskin. This is quite natural, but should be noted for fairness.

The question I think is relevant here is: If someone is rude to you does that give you explicit permission to reflect that rudeness with your own? Or should you seek to rise above it and present yourself as professional (in the context of a business setting like the OP complaint)?

I am of the mind that one should try to be polite irrespective of what the other guy says. Clearly that is beyond some people - and admittedly I struggle with it myself at times and with particularly awkward people. The other thing is that this thread shows just one example of a less-than-polite response. It's hardly statistically significant.

[david i]

First, you do love your Straw Man, David - you drag the poor soul out at every opportunity.
Second, no need to go through your prior posts - they have no greater validity than anyone else's. A pen that "spews ink out" and fills the cap with ink isn't a product that I would be happy to offer to a customer.
Third, facts and opinions are never the same. Consult your dictionary.
Fourth, I agree that "unpleasant" is subjective. Nonetheless, I - and apparently others -find Mr Minuskin's reply to the OP unpleasant. Just because something's subjective doesn't mean it's invalid.
Fifth, I have - very rarely - found a customer who was impossible to deal with. In such a case, I would politely withdraw from the sale. Otherwise, I would do my utmost to ensure that the customer is happy with his purchase. Pluvia's complaint about the condition of the pen he bought hardly seems to me to put him in the category of impossible customer.
Six - you'll need to amplify that one a little, I think.

Let's start with First:

Straw Man is a very useful notion for clarifying discussion. It removes quickly distractions. The position which is argued as if it matters even though it doesn't. One can toss out a straw man, successfully argue it, but still it doesn't matter. The linkage of it to what is of concern is why it is dangerous and should not go unpersecuted


Imaginary Example:

Greg sold Plotnik a resaced but not-formally-restored fountain pen. The pen did not work well. Greg accepted it for return.

Plotnick, in a discussion about the process, in an attempt to condemn Greg, wrote, " "You can't call a poor restoration 'good'""

-----

From a logic/debate standpoint, Plotnick's comment has some merit. While of course "you" can do many things (I can call a cat a pink elephant, though I'd be in error), his core thesis-- even if poorly stated-- that one ought not to call a poor restoration a good restoration is completely true, yet utterly irrelevant to analysis of Greg's business situation. Greg did not call a "poor restoration 'good'". So, Plotnick's argument, though true, is a Straw Man in the conversation. If he can get away with linking it successfully to the debate, however, he can make a point he really doesn't deserve. It behooves the observer (and the opposition in discussion) to call out the STraw.


Indeed, whether the restoration was poor or not is something of a tangent, as what makes a good restoration and how many fail even when good technique was applied is a non-trivial discussion.

And, further indeed, that the pen was not sold as fully restored makes "good vs bad restoration" even more irrelevant.

[david i]

First, you do love your Straw Man, David - you drag the poor soul out at every opportunity.
Second, no need to go through your prior posts - they have no greater validity than anyone else's. A pen that "spews ink out" and fills the cap with ink isn't a product that I would be happy to offer to a customer.
Third, facts and opinions are never the same. Consult your dictionary.
Fourth, I agree that "unpleasant" is subjective. Nonetheless, I - and apparently others -find Mr Minuskin's reply to the OP unpleasant. Just because something's subjective doesn't mean it's invalid.
Fifth, I have - very rarely - found a customer who was impossible to deal with. In such a case, I would politely withdraw from the sale. Otherwise, I would do my utmost to ensure that the customer is happy with his purchase. Pluvia's complaint about the condition of the pen he bought hardly seems to me to put him in the category of impossible customer.
Six - you'll need to amplify that one a little, I think.

Moving on.

It's clear my posts do have greater validity than some, as I address issues and avoid straw men. Of greater merit would be to weigh the content of any given post against any other in conflict to see where the chips fall.

Whether you would be happy to sell a spewing pen also is a straw man.

"Third, facts and opinions are never the same. Consult your dictionary." Note that his is a straw man. Whether or not facts and opinions are never the same has nothing to do anything I wrote.

I'd written, "Fourth, "Unpleasant" is subjective." You appear to have responded, "Nonetheless, I - and apparently others -find Mr Minuskin's reply to the OP unpleasant. Just because something's subjective doesn't mean it's invalid." This is Straw Man. Whether or not something being subjective still permits validity has nothing to do with my point.

I am happy for you that you have never found a customer who is impossible to deal with. I also know people who like baked beans. So?

"Pluvia's complaint about the condition of the pen he bought hardly seems to me to put him in the category of impossible customer." Indeed, I believe I never suggested it did.

"Six - you'll need to amplify that one a little, I think". I'd think it obvious. Cost-benefit analysis by individual sellers is the basis for my observation.

regards

-d