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Thread: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Be not deceived; God is not mocked...

    (Remember more than I thought from those 10yrs of Parochial School and the Masters from the Catholic College).

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    Senior Member VertOlive's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Our Lay Dominican group studied the documents of Vatican ll after Pope BXlV suggested the practice as a yearly theme. They are not difficult and I was so surprised at what is not in them!

    Various polls seem to indicate a large number of people who consider themselves to be Catholic do not believe in the Transubstantiation. Hence all those stoneware chalices and burlap chausables!
    "Nolo esse salus sine vobis ...” —St. Augustine

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    Senior Member LagNut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Tony,

    You're attributing views to me I did not express. Lots of them.

    I do believe in the transubstantiation. As you put it, "We can try", with gold, but gold's position in the hierarchy of elements is a human construct. Meanwhile, we used up church resources to honor this human conceit. And we know that we are held to account for what we do with what we are given.

    On Vatican II, let's see. I think I've got a reasonable idea. Mass is now in the vulgate. Priest no longer has his back to the congregation. Greater participation of the laity (should that be capitalized?) in the life of the church. And a greater and more central role of the scripture in the spritual life of all Catholics. I can't say it's a small set of documents(Vatican II documents), or easy reading. but am I wrong in these? Of all these I've noted, the centrality of scripture is the most important of those I've listed to me. The bringing of the faith in a more direct way to the unwashed masses is central, and so I have to say the idea that we need to get a "purer church" by getting rid of those that aren't worthy isn't one of them. Having spirited, but respectful discussions amongst the church is.

    I do understand your idea with the chalices, it's not the first round of these discussions I've had on this subject.

    Finally, on the awe, maybe it was not clear, but that was awe of someone crazy(like Holy Spirit crazy) enough to be raising an 8yr old boy going on 60. Maybe this comment will be miscontrued, but there can be no higher praise from me.

    Cheers, with the storm approaching. If it takes me a while to reply it's because our bad infrastructure can't take 50mph winds.
    Mike
    Last edited by LagNut; December 10th, 2014 at 10:07 PM.
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Tony,

    I was mainly replying to Vert Olive, and did not quote, since I was doing that quickly on a tablet that doesn't have a keyboard.

    If you took that as a jab at you or your views, it was not. I'm really trying not to raise the temperature. I would rather remain in light, and not heat.

    Mike
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

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    Senior Member Tony Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Quote Originally Posted by LagNut View Post
    On Vatican II, let's see. I think I've got a reasonable idea. Mass is now in the vulgate. Priest no longer has his back to the congregation. Greater participation of the laity (should that be capitalized?) in the life of the church. And a greater and more central role of the scripture in the spritual life of all Catholics. I can't say it's a small set of documents(Vatican II documents), or easy reading. but am I wrong in these? Of all these I've noted, the centrality of scripture is the most important of those I've listed to me. The bringing of the faith in a more direct way to the unwashed masses is central, and so I have to say the idea that we need to get a "purer church" by getting rid of those that aren't worthy isn't one of them. Having spirited, but respectful discussions amongst the church is.
    Okay. Then let us know which part of the Council documents that say those things, the priest should face the people (thus sticking his behind to the tabernacle!), more scripture reading in the Mass etc.

    Let's be specific.

    I agree it's not an easy task, but let's pretend that we are not indifferent of the relevant document, and if I may point out we should be looking at Sacrosanctum Concilium on this. Say for example, our priests quoted the scriptures either from the Introit, gradual, or the readings, or Biblical commentaries, Church Fathers et al. in their homilies simply because there's

    "sermon, moreover, should draw its content mainly from scriptural and liturgical sources,"
    ...there. Like I said, the Council is literally studied and implemented at our traditional parish. Heck, even the schismatics who disagree with the 5% of the Council, still agree with the 95%. Again, which part that say to replace ad Orientem to ad populum etc? In what way I'm not being respectful? All I'm asking is to call things by their proper names. It has been too long now people got away of quoting the Vatican 2 without actually quoting..

    For how long now? Almost fifty years? All in the name of liberalism, sentimentalism, or indifferentism..
    Last edited by Tony Rex; December 11th, 2014 at 02:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Who was it told Christ the money which the repentant woman spent on that alabaster jar of perfume for His head could be 'sold to help the poor?'
    My other pen is a Montblanc.

    And my other blog is a tumblr!


    And my latest ebook, for spooky wintery reading:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CM2NGSSD

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    Senior Member LagNut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Tony,

    Still not in the teeth of the storm here.

    So we do agree that the documents are not a simple clear read? This will not be quick on my part, I'm far more conversant with the Gospels.

    On the centrality of scripture, and primacy of the Gospels, (as far as I understand this) in Christian life, not just in the Mass. I'm reasonably sure the scripture was always a important part of the Mass, but maybe not? The central point of mass is communion, at least in our part of the world.

    From Dei Verbum: (Which is the first document on the website, hmm)

    18. It is common knowledge that among all the Scriptures, even those of the New Testament, the Gospels have a special preeminence, and rightly so, for they are the principal witness for the life and teaching of the incarnate Word, our savior.


    and a bit later, in section 25
    The sacred synod also earnestly and especially urges all the Christian faithful, especially Religious, to learn by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures the "excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 3:8). "For ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ."(5) Therefore, they should gladly put themselves in touch with the sacred text itself, whether it be through the liturgy, rich in the divine word, or through devotional reading, or through instructions suitable for the purpose and other aids which, in our time, with approval and active support of the shepherds of the Church, are commendably spread everywhere. And let them remember that prayer should accompany the reading of Sacred Scripture, so that God and man may talk together; for "we speak to Him when we pray; we hear Him when we read the divine saying." (6)

    On the chalice question, from Lumen Gentium(third paragraph of section 8):
    Just as Christ carried out the work of redemption in poverty and persecution, so the Church is called to follow the same route that it might communicate the fruits of salvation to men.

    On cleaning out the church so only the true part remains, again Lumen Gentium(end of section 28 )
    Because the human race today is joining more and more into a civic, economic and social unity, it is that much the more necessary that priests, by combined effort and aid, under the leadership of the bishops and the Supreme Pontiff, wipe out every kind of separateness, so that the whole human race may be brought into the unity of the family of God.

    Chapter IV of Lumen Gentium is entirely centered on the laity. Do we agree this was a substantial change from earlier church practice?

    I'm shocked to not find the position of the gluteus maximus of the priest during Mass amongst the documents. I would think this would be spelled out clearly. I'll keep looking.

    Mike

    Also, this is the first time in a long time I looked at my post in a true brower, and I was shocked to find smileys embedded. I don't do smileys, at least not wittingly. I had joined the colon and begin parenthesis, and this was interpreted as a frown?
    Last edited by LagNut; December 11th, 2014 at 08:46 AM.
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

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    Senior Member Tony Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    @SK: It was Judas.

    @Mike: I see. We truly are on a different pages here. Pardon my brevity but I'm pressed for time as well as scope—You are probably better off reading the basics in the CCC #109-119 rather than quoting DV, which ironically quoted by one of the paragraph there. That is how I approach the Holy Scripture, and it's non negotiable. Heck even Pope Francis and I would agree on that, so I won't descend into the basics. I understand that bible bashing is probably the most popular and the mainstream form of piety nowadays, at least among the "practicing" Catholics by the "evangelical" movements etc. but I've been there and it didn't work. Tbh, I'd rather go to one of those Prosperity Gospel joints as the Pope lamented ha!

    No mate. There's a totally different world of Christian piety that's true to its roots. It was suppressed in the sixties, but slowly resurfacing because the experiment has shown its result. Will you let your son in a same room with a priest nowadays? I rest my case.

    And Re: priest facing the people take a close look at the second last picture... http://www.stpeterslist.com/12223/fa...s-ad-orientem/
    Last edited by Tony Rex; December 11th, 2014 at 12:28 PM.

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    Senior Member VertOlive's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    "but gold's position in the hierarchy of elements is a human construct"-yes what other construct would we use? I'm not sure why this is an either/or question. The Church has always been on the forefront of assistance to the poor, Francis is not covering new ground here with attention to them, but that does not need to obscure the honor due to Our Lord when He in His solicitude comes to us on the altar. There is room for both.

    I can (and do) raise an abandoned infant [a task of the laity mentioned in Apostoliticum Actuositatem] and set a little cash aside to help the parish replace those chalices at the same time. I'm of the viewpoint that a lovely and reverent liturgy as well as the other sacraments is a tool of evangelization to "communicate the fruits of salvation to men" as much as is a bag of rice. One does not eliminate the need for the other.

    Onward.
    Last edited by VertOlive; December 12th, 2014 at 06:08 PM.
    "Nolo esse salus sine vobis ...” —St. Augustine

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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    I am not a Catholic but my college roommate was and I learned some about it. Regardless of where this was posted it is a very interesting thread. Thanks to all for the conversation. Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas and a happy new year to all.
    Sandy
    We don't know what we don't know

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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    VertOlive,

    If this was not an edict, I am happy with congregations making this choice themselves. That was not how it was presented to us. We had to replace all non gold chalices, they had been deemed unusable. I just accepted this as a new position of the church, one that I wouldn't have done. Was this not a change required by Rome?

    Maybe I am missing the meaning here, but I think we are in agreement that chalice material should be a choice of the local congregation?

    Mike
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Tony Rex,

    You ask me to show me where this is in Vatican II, then claim it is beyond me?

    Which is quoted ironically?

    Mike
    Last edited by LagNut; December 12th, 2014 at 09:16 AM.
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

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    Senior Member VertOlive's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    From the GIRM [General Instruction of the Roman Missal, 2010]: see section lll, Sacred Vessels--http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-6.cfm

    In our Parish, we did not each vote; the Pastor and the Liturgy Committee [an entirely lay group] decided to replace the glass cups used for the congregation with gold plated ones. The main chalices were all of gold already.

    Ours is an inner city parish founded and still made up of working class first and second generation Poles, there is little money here, but there was a crowd in the rectory the day the word went out and those cups were paid for by end of day. Each one cost far less than most of our pens here, not to put too fine a point on it (!)

    I wasn't there, but this may have been what happened at your parish-- someone pulled out the GIRM and read the part about "do not easily break", etc. and changes were made.
    Last edited by VertOlive; December 12th, 2014 at 06:32 PM.
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    Senior Member Tony Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Quote Originally Posted by LagNut View Post
    Tony Rex,

    You ask me to show me where this is in Vatican II, then claim it is beyond me?

    Which is quoted ironically?

    Mike
    It's hard to convey something to the point without being perceived as abrasive via net. So first let me assure you that I'm calm. However, I took your suggestion of "return to the Gospel" as "you hate the pope" therefore "your type don't read the bible" .. as a veiled attack... But that's okay by me because I was neither. And berated (semi condemned?) me with "being accountable by the Gospels" did you not? Before saying nice things like "I'll pray for you."..

    Those sentiments of yours condemn. While mine towards the Pope judges. They are totally different, Mike. Did you notice on the issues I mentioned (FFI, Synod, Burke) those were concrete actions on his Holiness behalf? Yet you "kindly reminded" me of Judgement... From my tone over the internet and on issues you were barely aware of! There's a real fine line between judging and condemning and judging hearts instead of acts. Only God can judge hearts, but we can and should judge our own actions.. Even the Pope when he's wrong!

    Ironically, I became a traditionalist from an honest study of the Scriptures according to directives in the catechism. I read the Sacred Scripture now through the Sacred Tradition, but before that, I was with the catholic charismatics bible bashing Pentecostal style and felt they inadequately explained things up, and especially the cherry picking the "Gospels" whenever convenient. It's no wonder there's a "Prosperity Gospel" nowadays. So should I follow your suggestion it'd be a step back for me. I no longer roll that way. I can't serve two masters. And from your tone I assumed you were from that angle, charismatic renewal stuff, am I right?

    Now about the V2 quoting. I brought it up because you said you "grew up seeing it dismantled", which makes you sound like a whining neo-modernist whenever they encounter anything "pre-Vatican2".. It is a bitter irony for us who love and nurture V2, while those who constantly use catchy catchphrases like that against us while cherry picked and supplanted it with something else.

    Care to explain in what way it was being "dismantled"?
    Last edited by Tony Rex; December 13th, 2014 at 03:43 AM.

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    Senior Member LagNut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    VertOlive,

    Now I am really confused about what happened. I will try to figure out what did. Doesn't help that exact memory has never been my strong suit, and aging has just made it worse. It was after my youngest was confirmed, and we heard this in the homily, as far as I remember. I also recall it being attributed to far up the food chain - beyond our diocese, and I recall it as from Benedict, but I can't really be sure on that. We didn't have glass chalices, and any injury from them would be a broken toe, if they fell. We had gold and non gold.
    It really sticks in my mind because I was sure she misheard, and went straight to our pastor to clear it up as we left Mass. Dad was wrong, she was right. She was the tough one who was pushing against being confirmed, but did get confirmed in the end.

    Thanks much,
    Mike
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

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    Senior Member LagNut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Rex View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LagNut View Post
    Tony Rex,

    You ask me to show me where this is in Vatican II, then claim it is beyond me?

    Which is quoted ironically?

    Mike
    It's hard to convey something to the point without being perceived as abrasive via net. So first let me assure you that I'm calm. However, I took your suggestion of "return to the Gospel" as "you hate the pope" therefore "your type don't read the bible" .. as a veiled attack... But that's okay by me because I was neither. And berated (semi condemned?) me with "being accountable by the Gospels" did you not? Before saying nice things like "I'll pray for you."..

    Those sentiments of yours condemn. While mine towards the Pope judges. They are totally different, Mike. Did you notice on the issues I mentioned (FFI, Synod, Burke) those were concrete actions on his Holiness behalf? Yet you "kindly reminded" me of Judgement... From my tone over the internet and on issues you were barely aware of! There's a real fine line between judging and condemning and judging hearts instead of acts. Only God can judge hearts, but we can and should judge our own actions.. Even the Pope when he's wrong!

    Ironically, I became a traditionalist from an honest study of the Scriptures according to directives in the catechism. I read the Sacred Scripture now through the Sacred Tradition, but before that, I was with the catholic charismatics bible bashing Pentecostal style and felt they inadequately explained things up, and especially the cherry picking the "Gospels" whenever convenient. It's no wonder there's a "Prosperity Gospel" nowadays. So should I follow your suggestion it'd be a step back for me. I no longer roll that way. I can't serve two masters. And from your tone I assumed you were from that angle, charismatic renewal stuff, am I right?

    Now about the V2 quoting. I brought it up because you said you "grew up seeing it dismantled", which makes you sound like a whining neo-modernist whenever they encounter anything "pre-Vatican2".. It is a bitter irony for us who love and nurture V2, while those who constantly use catchy catchphrases like that against us while cherry picked and supplanted it with something else.

    Care to explain in what way it was being "dismantled"?
    You quoted my post, then failed to answer the single question within it. Again, Which of my quotes of DV2 is ironic?

    Looking back, I do believe now it is Sailor Kenshin who committed the act of calling Francis a "poser", not you, though you did not correct that statement. I do believe I've got that correct now, and apologize for making that mistake.

    I'm not a Charismatic, never have been. I had a friend I grew up with who went down that road, I think he came back since then, but I'm not sure.

    I could go through your quoted reply above and correct what you are claiming I said, but it's pretty pointless if you can't even address my simple question.

    Again, which of my quotes of the text of Vatican 2 was ironic?

    Mike
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

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    Senior Member LagNut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    VertOlive,

    Thank you for those links, but what I see there is consistent with the way things were before that particular episode:
    326. In choosing materials for sacred furnishings, besides those which are traditional, others are admissible that, according to the mentality of our own age, are considered to be noble and are durable, and well suited for sacred use. In the Dioceses of the United States of America these materials may include wood, stone, or metal which are solid and appropriate to the purpose for which they are employed.

    Our chalices met that criterion. The one in particular I'm recalling was I think stone, but we had a number that all were replaced with gold.

    I have another question, and that is how you like the change in the language of the Mass? I'm assuming you find it better than the language that was replaced? This was maybe a year or two ago?

    I have a real problem with the new language, it is jarring to me and I have to speak softly now and look at the Missals to find out the passages I'm going to be out of whack on, which seem like most of them. I'm hoping the new language(which I understand is based on literal translation of the latin) is something a significant portion of the church finds an improvement.

    Again, thanks for the pointer on the chalices.
    Mike
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

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    Senior Member Sailor Kenshin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Quote Originally Posted by LagNut View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Rex View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LagNut View Post
    Tony Rex,

    You ask me to show me where this is in Vatican II, then claim it is beyond me?

    Which is quoted ironically?

    Mike
    It's hard to convey something to the point without being perceived as abrasive via net. So first let me assure you that I'm calm. However, I took your suggestion of "return to the Gospel" as "you hate the pope" therefore "your type don't read the bible" .. as a veiled attack... But that's okay by me because I was neither. And berated (semi condemned?) me with "being accountable by the Gospels" did you not? Before saying nice things like "I'll pray for you."..

    Those sentiments of yours condemn. While mine towards the Pope judges. They are totally different, Mike. Did you notice on the issues I mentioned (FFI, Synod, Burke) those were concrete actions on his Holiness behalf? Yet you "kindly reminded" me of Judgement... From my tone over the internet and on issues you were barely aware of! There's a real fine line between judging and condemning and judging hearts instead of acts. Only God can judge hearts, but we can and should judge our own actions.. Even the Pope when he's wrong!

    Ironically, I became a traditionalist from an honest study of the Scriptures according to directives in the catechism. I read the Sacred Scripture now through the Sacred Tradition, but before that, I was with the catholic charismatics bible bashing Pentecostal style and felt they inadequately explained things up, and especially the cherry picking the "Gospels" whenever convenient. It's no wonder there's a "Prosperity Gospel" nowadays. So should I follow your suggestion it'd be a step back for me. I no longer roll that way. I can't serve two masters. And from your tone I assumed you were from that angle, charismatic renewal stuff, am I right?

    Now about the V2 quoting. I brought it up because you said you "grew up seeing it dismantled", which makes you sound like a whining neo-modernist whenever they encounter anything "pre-Vatican2".. It is a bitter irony for us who love and nurture V2, while those who constantly use catchy catchphrases like that against us while cherry picked and supplanted it with something else.

    Care to explain in what way it was being "dismantled"?
    You quoted my post, then failed to answer the single question within it. Again, Which of my quotes of DV2 is ironic?

    Looking back, I do believe now it is Sailor Kenshin who committed the act of calling Francis a "poser", not you, though you did not correct that statement. I do believe I've got that correct now, and apologize for making that mistake.

    I'm not a Charismatic, never have been. I had a friend I grew up with who went down that road, I think he came back since then, but I'm not sure.

    I could go through your quoted reply above and correct what you are claiming I said, but it's pretty pointless if you can't even address my simple question.

    Again, which of my quotes of the text of Vatican 2 was ironic?

    Mike

    WHOAH AND back up....I do not think I EVER called Francis a 'poser.'

    If I did...I was being possessed by Wormtongue.
    My other pen is a Montblanc.

    And my other blog is a tumblr!


    And my latest ebook, for spooky wintery reading:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CM2NGSSD

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    Tony Rex (December 14th, 2014)

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    Senior Member VertOlive's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Wait. Kenshin did not call the Pope a poser. Tony did, and I would. But Kenshin did not.
    "Nolo esse salus sine vobis ...” —St. Augustine

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    Senior Member Tony Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Quote Originally Posted by VertOlive View Post
    Wait. Kenshin did not call the Pope a poser. Tony did, and I would. But Kenshin did not.
    lol thanks Di. Yes I did. And I do have a reason for that, which I'll explain in a moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by LagNut View Post
    Tony,
    From Dei Verbum: (Which is the first document on the website, hmm)
    Wrong document and quite irrelevant to back up your anger. Being the first doesn't necessarily mean Dei Verbum (not DV2, btw) is more important than other documents, each with own topic. Again the right one is Sacrosanctum Concilium for the ad Orientem issue; like I said we love and nurture those documents, but we don't cherry pick nor grasping.. Unlike those who barely read them but used them for silly purposes .... like ire

    And I called this Jesuit Pope a poser because he calls himself FRANCIS for his anthrophocentrist agenda by means of popularity (certainly got praises from the secularists from outside and the casual papal apologists such as yourself), while behind all that he had driven real Franciscans destitute with heavy handed tactics. Traditional Fransiscan Friars among those what he calls "rosary counter" from praying for him daily, while tell me, how many times you pray for the Pope in a year?

    That's right. Your great champion of poverty took a whole floor in the "humble" Domus, while those who vowed poverty denied even a home to pray as they used to. If that's not an irony I don't know what is..

    Oh wait, I know.

    An irate papolatrist defending the pope from the papists.
    Last edited by Tony Rex; December 15th, 2014 at 02:31 AM.

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