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Thread: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

  1. #61
    Senior Member LagNut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Sailor Kenshin,

    Sorry. Deeply sorry.

    Please keep me honest(correct me when I'm way off base like that), and please forgive me. The first few pages of this thread are hard for me to unravel, and I guess I got it right the first time, but wrong the seventh? Still no excuse on my part.

    Mike



    Mike
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

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    Senior Member Sailor Kenshin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Quote Originally Posted by LagNut View Post
    Sailor Kenshin,

    Sorry. Deeply sorry.

    Please keep me honest(correct me when I'm way off base like that), and please forgive me. The first few pages of this thread are hard for me to unravel, and I guess I got it right the first time, but wrong the seventh? Still no excuse on my part.

    Mike



    Mike
    Apology gratefully accepted. No harm, no foul.

    While this Pope has said some things that are deeply troubling to me, I don't know that his words were correctly reported, and even while disliking certain things, would not call him a 'poser.'
    My other pen is a Montblanc.

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  3. #63
    Senior Member VertOlive's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Mike, item 326 is in section ll, Sacred Furnishings. This refers to the materials of which the church is made and with which it is furnished. Section lll, to which I referred you, regards Sacred Vessles such as the ciborium, paten, and chalice.

    You're correct in that I have no problem with the current translations. If you attend on a regular basis, it comes naturally soon enough. That said, about half of the Masses we attend are in Latin. Which has not changed.
    Last edited by VertOlive; December 15th, 2014 at 06:49 PM.
    "Nolo esse salus sine vobis ...” —St. Augustine

  4. #64
    Senior Member LagNut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    VertOlive,

    Thanks for the clarification, and indeed for the original pointer to that document.

    I am glad these translations are to your liking. I'll survive the change, and the girls find it endlessly amusing to see me go off track, stop,. and get completely flustered. Repeatedly.

    Mike
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

  5. #65
    Senior Member LagNut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Tony,

    Your request:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Rex View Post
    Okay. Then let us know which part of the Council documents that say those things, the priest should face the people (thus sticking his behind to the tabernacle!), more scripture reading in the Mass etc.
    .
    That was your request. You're already twisting my words, so maybe I should have started by correcting you. What I had said was:
    Quote Originally Posted by LagNut
    On Vatican II, let's see. I think I've got a reasonable idea. Mass is now in the vulgate. Priest no longer has his back to the congregation. Greater participation of the laity (should that be capitalized?) in the life of the church. And a greater and more central role of the scripture in the spritual life of all Catholics. I can't say it's a small set of documents(Vatican II documents), or easy reading. but am I wrong in these? Of all these I've noted, the centrality of scripture is the most important of those I've listed to me. The bringing of the faith in a more direct way to the unwashed masses is central, and so I have to say the idea that we need to get a "purer church" by getting rid of those that aren't worthy isn't one of them. Having spirited, but respectful discussions amongst the church is..
    You twisted my
    Quote Originally Posted by LagNut
    a greater and more central role of the scripture in the spritual life of all Catholics.
    into
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Rex
    more scripture reading in the Mass
    Two very different things.

    Here is my reply to your request, the one you're claiming is ironic.

    Quote Originally Posted by LagNut View Post
    On the centrality of scripture, and primacy of the Gospels, (as far as I understand this) in Christian life, not just in the Mass. I'm reasonably sure the scripture was always a important part of the Mass, but maybe not? The central point of mass is communion, at least in our part of the world.

    From Dei Verbum: (Which is the first document on the website, hmm)

    18. It is common knowledge that among all the Scriptures, even those of the New Testament, the Gospels have a special preeminence, and rightly so, for they are the principal witness for the life and teaching of the incarnate Word, our savior.


    and a bit later, in section 25
    The sacred synod also earnestly and especially urges all the Christian faithful, especially Religious, to learn by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures the "excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 3:8). "For ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ."(5) Therefore, they should gladly put themselves in touch with the sacred text itself, whether it be through the liturgy, rich in the divine word, or through devotional reading, or through instructions suitable for the purpose and other aids which, in our time, with approval and active support of the shepherds of the Church, are commendably spread everywhere. And let them remember that prayer should accompany the reading of Sacred Scripture, so that God and man may talk together; for "we speak to Him when we pray; we hear Him when we read the divine saying." (6)
    If I'm pointing out the portion of Vatican 2 that supports my point, that the centrality of scripture in Catholic life is a key peice of Vatican 2. I think Dei Verbum would be the correct section. Not ironic.

    If you are sure of your position, please don't re-craft my words to make them easier to refute. I want to have an honest discussion here.

    On dismantling Vatican 2, from my point of view, it's been a steady drift back to practices that pre-date it, and I don't expect you to agree that this is wrong. I will agree that all those changes would have been consistent with the letter of Vatican 2. If I saw changes that were so egregious that I couldn't continue being a Catholic, I wouldn't be here arguing with you.

    I'll have to educate myself on what happened with the Franciscans. My older sister is a lay Franciscan, but she is not capable of educating me on these points any more.

    My guess is this is not the main problem you have with Francis, and at some point we should get to that discussion, if there is a discussion to be had. I am not going to be able to do this at a rapid rate, I have an overfull plate myself.

    And yes, I'll agree there is irony here aplenty. I see the irony in a different light.

    Mike

    Mike
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

  6. #66
    Senior Member Sailor Kenshin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Quote Originally Posted by LagNut View Post
    VertOlive,

    Thanks for the clarification, and indeed for the original pointer to that document.

    I am glad these translations are to your liking. I'll survive the change, and the girls find it endlessly amusing to see me go off track, stop,. and get completely flustered. Repeatedly.

    Mike
    Are we speaking of the 'new' translation of the Missalette? We had one rehearsal, then cheat sheets, all of which are falling apart by now.
    My other pen is a Montblanc.

    And my other blog is a tumblr!


    And my latest ebook, for spooky wintery reading:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CM2NGSSD

  7. #67
    Senior Member VertOlive's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Kenshin, yes.

    In 2011, the International Commission for English in the Liturgy [ICEL] introduced a more accurate English translation of the Missal of Pope Paul VI from the official Latin text.

    Pertinent to this discussion is the fact that, even in the '70's, it began to emerge that the translation then in use was banal and full of errors once both clerics and lay persons began to compare it to the Latin. In 1979, Christopher Monckton, then Editor of the "Universe" compiled a list of over 400 such errors.

    Here is an example of the stark difference between the two Missals: The previous translation "He took the cup" is now rendered as "He took this precious chalice in his holy and venerable hands." When reading the Roman Canon ("accipiens et hunc praeclarum calicem in sanctas et venerabiles manus suas"), even an indifferent student of Latin can see that the old version was "dumbed down" and de-sacralised.

    Words mean things.
    Last edited by VertOlive; December 16th, 2014 at 06:15 PM.
    "Nolo esse salus sine vobis ...” —St. Augustine

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  9. #68
    Senior Member Sailor Kenshin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Actually, the only 'Latin' I know comes from my insane love of dinosaurs when I was a kid...but even I see the difference in what you posted.
    My other pen is a Montblanc.

    And my other blog is a tumblr!


    And my latest ebook, for spooky wintery reading:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CM2NGSSD

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    VertOlive (December 17th, 2014)

  11. #69
    Senior Member Tony Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Quote Originally Posted by LagNut View Post
    Tony,
    On dismantling Vatican 2, from my point of view, it's been a steady drift back to practices that pre-date it, and I don't expect you to agree that this is wrong. I will agree that all those changes would have been consistent with the letter of Vatican 2. If I saw changes that were so egregious that I couldn't continue being a Catholic, I wouldn't be here arguing with you.
    -snip

    And yes, I'll agree there is irony here aplenty. I see the irony in a different light.

    Mike

    Mike
    Twisting your words? Franciscan lay sister? If this is just point scoring I'm not interested.

    Beyond that, obviously it's irony upon irony. In your light of modernism, everything's upside down. Words don't mean a thing, even in your own vernacular. The above posts demonstrate that perfectly. Thanks for reminding me what's the typical Ordinary Rite sounds and looks like. Everything's a compromise of the real thing. And your language reflects your generation. Let me quote Sandro Magister here..

    Today, by contrast, the stick is being shaken under the influence of imposed formulas by a secular falsification of Christianity, such as “love” and “mercy” against responsibility and right judgment, such as “life” against reason, such as “nature” and “happiness” against sin and salvation, such as “Council” against Christian Tradition. This is along the lines of too many homilies, where it seems we are re-hearing, watered-down and out of time, the worst of the post-conciliar seasons.
    Pietro di Marco

    What's more to discuss? You call building V2 'dismantling' while only quoting it just for a stupid reasons, and your persistence on grasping by quoting Dei Verbum astounds me. But I'm not surprised by the show of humility of modernism.

    And of the fruit of that are the wrong translations, why resist the efforts to correct them? Why so afraid of leaving your comfort zone? Why call those efforts from people more qualified (and have more authority) than you "dismantling" or "reverting" as if the Church starts only after the last Council. In other words: discontinuity, right? So yours is the new "enlightened" Church right? "Reformed"? Ha! Anathema sit!

    We call a thing by it's name. When the Pope's a tyrant, he's a bloody tyrant. Unlike the good Father of the prodigal son, the bad steward sold what's left and join the unrepentant son, then beat the elder with a stick for voicing his concerns. Tell me "Biblical" friend, why didn't the Father run after the prodigal son? Why not sell the rest and go after him like Pope Bergoglio? Because unlike the arrogant disciple the good Father, a master, knows better. He could have only retrieved his lost son, not his heart.

    Let's suppose The Pope put up a charade before the children of the world out as a conclave prerequisite; if that so.. Can you imagine the Successor of Peter stoop that low to break your hardness of heart? I used to think that was the case, but alas, no more. Bergoglio's election was by design and now the lobbyist are demanding their ample reward. The victor has proven this by his zeal in rewarding them gladly, partly by sacrificing traditional piety, to the point of selling lotteries.. He'd be a great NGO secretary general but not Pontifex. Sorry.

    Meanwhile let's go back to the topic of the thread:

    Will this wooden chalice/paten gift from that openly pedo supporter be included in the lottery prizes or not? Perhaps not, I reckon they went straight to the the Pope's personal collection. People like him an Ricca and Wesolowski are free to roam the streets of Rome while Card. Burke was demoted, Fr Manelli is under perpetual house arrest.

    Hmmm... Apparently if I say these things "God's name be mocked" right? While filth and their lobby inside the Vatican doesn't mock his Holy Name? But hey... Who am I to judge (tm)? When the head of the Swiss guard raised his voice, about people coming and going at nighttime, he got fired immediately.

    Did all that stop us for praying for the Pope? Nope. In fact we dialed it to eleven.
    Last edited by Tony Rex; December 18th, 2014 at 02:50 AM.

  12. #70
    Senior Member VertOlive's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Speaking of the above, it is Pope Francis' birthday today (12/17). Let's send up an extra prayer for him!
    "Nolo esse salus sine vobis ...” —St. Augustine

  13. #71
    Senior Member LagNut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    Tony Rex,

    OK, I think we do inhabit different worlds. I'm done. I agree it's pretty pointless from here.

    Mike
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

  14. #72
    Senior Member Tony Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican's ruffle. From Panama hats to yes, fountain pens.

    I'm glad you and I can agree on something.

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