The Philosophy of the "Steal"

[Farmboy]

Farm boy. You edited your post down to the word test. Were you trying to say hello? Back at ya' farm boy.

No edit there, some of my posts are just happening that way. I'm blaming the pilot...

[mrcharlie]

Don't get me wrong, I'm no saint, but when the subject title of this thread actually refers to theft, I felt it needed addressing.

The title of this thread does not refer to theft. It is a common colloquialism (in the USA at least) to refer to a very low price for something as "a steal"; nearly everyone understands this usage does not refer to actual theft.

[Jon Szanto]

Don't get me wrong, I'm no saint, but when the subject title of this thread actually refers to theft, I felt it needed addressing.

The title of this thread does not refer to theft. It is a common colloquialism (in the USA at least) to refer to a very low price for something as "a steal"; nearly everyone understands this usage does not refer to actual theft.

Of course, I understand that completely. Nonetheless: where did that phrase come from? Is it not about getting something for so little as to have some wicked glee? Are some of the stories not indicative of "how much this could have cost but look how little I got it for"? There is the literal word, and then there is the implication. It has been instructive, to me.

[kirchh]

I think there is a tremendous difference between taking advantage of a person's situation and taking advantage of a person's laziness.

I refuse to take advantage of people affected by factors outside of their control (age, mental capacity, misfortune, etc).

However, I will absolutely take advantage of a situation where a perfectly capable seller fails to educate themselves and prices an item well below what I'd be willing to pay.

There is a difference between someone going through a rough time and someone who is, quite honestly, lazy. With modern technology, there's no excuse for people not to spend 1-2 minutes googling an item's value. If the seller can't afford a computer....that's understandable. If the seller doesn't WANT a computer, not my problem.

To those that offered your own opinions, I'll ask you one simple question: where do you draw the line?

What if a Mom and Pop store was severely underpricing an item? Would you tell them?
What if Wal-Mart severely underpriced an item? How about then?

Many of you probably wouldn't tell Wal-Mart, but I'd have to question why. If Wal-Mart priced every item too low, they'd go out of business and millions would be without jobs. I'd argue that that's more important than telling just one person.

I can't understand why I should feel obligated to educate people for free. Not only that, but why I should feel obligated to educate people AT MY OWN EXPENSE.

This is simple economics. A capable seller can offer an item at whatever price they wish. As that price lowers, the target buying audience becomes larger and larger.

Bottom line: If a capable seller offers an item and it's below what I'm willing to pay, I'll happily give them their asking price. It's not my place to tell them how much to sell it for just like it isn't their place to tell me how much to pay.

But it might be different where they don't have an asking price, and you offer $20 (or less) for $2,000+ worth of coins.

--Daniel

[mmahany]

But it might be different where they don't have an asking price, and you offer $20 (or less) for $2,000+ worth of coins.

--Daniel

I'm genuinely curious, but why do you say that?

I'll withhold the details of that find only to hear your opinion without considering my full perspective.

BTW, that's exactly what happened. The seller asked me to make an offer.

[JonV6]

I don't know if this has been mentioned by anyone already but FatFingers is a great site for finding misspellings on ebay. Might just help you find some more bargains!

[kirchh]

But it might be different where they don't have an asking price, and you offer $20 (or less) for $2,000+ worth of coins.

--Daniel

I'm genuinely curious, but why do you say that?

I'll withhold the details of that find only to hear your opinion without considering my full perspective.

BTW, that's exactly what happened. The seller asked me to make an offer.

You offered someone $20 for two ounces of solid gold at a garage sale? I guess she must have been busy and didn't give it much thought.

--Daniel

[Farmboy]

This is perhaps a good time to let this board in on a game I have been known to play.

I list a significant pen (something that retails around 1500) on eBay using my brother's eBay account. He knows nothing about pens. I write description that indicates he knows nothing about pens. Then I sit back and watch the bizarre offers come in. Usually something like "You have a very nice pen for sale, would you consider a BIN offer of $220?" My response goes something like this: "YES! I will accept your offer of 2200 and switch the auction to a BIN and send you an invoice." I quickly switch the auction to a BIN.

I know it isn't nice to do and may violate all sorts of eBay policy, but the response email is priceless...

[mrcharlie]

Nonetheless: where did that phrase come from? Is it not about getting something for so little as to have some wicked glee? Are some of the stories not indicative of "how much this could have cost but look how little I got it for"? There is the literal word, and then there is the implication. It has been instructive, to me.

Remove the "wicked" and yes. There is nothing immoral and I have never felt the least bit wicked at buying something for a price asked by the seller. There are many reasons why for profit businesses sell some inventory off at a crazy loss and people get "a steal", and there are many reasonable situations where private individuals choose to sell stuff for whatever they can get for minimal effort rather than researching the max value and best place to sell a thing where it would find a higher paying customer base. Buying from such people or businesses is not wicked barring them being feeble-minded or in some way mentally impaired, or barring an agreement by the buyer to be acting as an agent to obtain a fair market deal for the seller.

I just deleted a huge long reply. I don't really want to discuss this and don't like how it derailed the original purpose of this topic; I'd rather read people tell us about the crazy great deals they got because they knew about and valued something and the seller didn't know about or value that same thing, or was willing to sell it for a pittance for whatever reason.

[Jon Szanto]

I am sorry for having brought rain to such a sunny parade. Be glad, then, in your bargains.

[pengeezer]

It really comes down to this: If folks selling such items as fountain pens would do some homework,the percentage of
bargains(or sumgais,as some see them) would naturally diminsh. But as long as they don't,there's something to look forward to.


John

[HughC]

I am sorry for having brought rain to such a sunny parade. Be glad, then, in your bargains.

Why Jon ? You raised a point well worth discussion, a bit of "a fair days pay for a fair days work" attitude that few, if any, would disagree with in principle. You apply your beliefs to a situation and that's something that deserves respect.

Regards
Hugh

[amk]

I think there's nothing wrong getting a steal from ebay.

After all, we have all done quite a bit of work learning about the different pens and their values, and in many cases learning how to do fix ups or how to grind nibs. We are also taking a bit of a risk in many cases, buying from a not very good cameraphone photograph or grabbing a job lot that might be 100% garbage but might have a couple of good pens in it.

Work + risk = reward (hopefully!)

[mrcharlie]

I don't really want to discuss this and don't like how it derailed the original purpose of this topic ...

Thanks to the mod for forking this; I did not mean to say this wasn't worth discussing, just that I didn't like how doing so derailed the purpose of the original item.

Being able to fork the discussion into its own topic/item is a big win.

[manoeuver]

I developed a particular set of ethics flipping drumkits on craigslist for several years, the FP game is different but the ethics serve me well.

Usually if somebody had a really rare and severely underpriced kit, they'd wish they were never born after a day or two. I could be there cash in hand and some asshole on the internet would be trying to continue a bidding war, meanwhile the seller is terrified somebody's trying to rip them off. No thanks. I learned to sniff those kinds of things out and leave em' alone.

I specialized in vintage kits that needed some TLC. If the price was really low, I'd have a candid chat with the seller:

• I'll pay your asking price gladly; if you parted this stuff out you could get a lot more.
• I really only want (cool item amongst some other lesser items) and I'll give you $X for it (X being a fair price for the item and the bulk of their asking price.)

Often after this exchange, they would say, "How bout (a slightly higher price than they originally asked for) for everything- I just want it gone."
I still get a good deal and they feel taken care of rather than taken advantage of. I don't like leaving a transaction if the other guy suspects he may have been had.

In August I bought a large collection from a forum member here for a very, very low price. It seemed too low to be true so I arranged a phone call to make sure everything was OK. He didn't want the hassle of selling the stuff piecemeal- he was trading pens for time. (After all the work it's taken flipping these pens I think he got the better end of the deal!)

Ebay: it's the wild west. I've watched some of my auctions go at sumgai prices, shrugged and taken care of my customer. If someone can't be bothered to spell their listing properly they probably don't care how much they get for it either. That said, I rarely buy anything on Ebay.

[Quantum Sailor]

This is an interesting topic and one that leads to a strange conundrum in American society. I don't know about other countries as I haven't lived there.

So on one side you have pure capitalism, you have that there are in its simplest forms two parties one that wants the highest price from selling perspective and lowest price from buying perspective. Now at the ultimate ends of this definition since people are in the majority out for self interest one doesn't really care about the situation of the other party unless you will get priced out of the transaction. For example if I can sell a 1.00 item for 1k does it really matter to me what the buyers situation is (while this is extreme I have seen situations like this on eBay) and is it my responsibility to notify the buyer that the price is too high and not accept the final bid of the item over what the item is really worth.

As a buyer do I really care if someone can sell say Japanese pens for hundreds of dollars less if I order them from over seas even though I know their prices should be significantly higher (*caugh* engeika). When that seller is happy to do so apparently and has been successfully running a business using those practices.

Then there's the moral high ground of not taking advantage of someone who doesn't realize they are being taken advantage of. I personally do not feel like buying something from someone at a price they are willing to sell is immoral as long as the person is of sound mind. If they do not want to take the time to know what they are doing then that is their failing not mine.

Would the same argument be made if we were not talking about money? If you're a musician should you allow someone to be in a band and get paid without taking the time to learn their craft, carrying them along just because you feel morally responsible to provide them with what they want to do? If someone does not take the time to learn their craft, or learn what they are doing then it is not others responsibility to make sure that they are taken care of. There are many many business mentors out there willing to teach and guide others who want to venture into that side of life.

However what I do take issue with is recognizing someones need and taking advantage of that need. If we switch the scenario to a vendor who is obviously struggling and selling off personal items to provide food for a family or basic necessities if you're going to argue that individual down to the bare minimum you can get them to so as to take advantage of the fact that they need money now and you are knowledgeably hurting them then you are an a**hole and that's something else entirely.

[dneal]

So what about a converse situation? Instead of being the buyer, you're the seller. Suppose you offered an item on eBay, and the bidding got out of hand. The winning bid is significantly more than the average market value. Do you contact the buyer and offer to let them pay a more reasonable price?

[jde]

Here's a tougher question: any of you find a deal so good, so obviously because of a clueless seller, that you told them, and either offered to pay more, or alerted them ahead of time so they could not get taken by others?

Coming in late, as usual....

Yes, once on eBay, and twice on FPN classifieds because in my own mind, it did seem that the sellers were unaware of the value of what they were offering. And at least a couple of times on FPN I've given the seller more money because in good faith felt the pen deserved it. But that was long ago in another time with a sense of community for FP people.

Now whether the person appreciated being told or not, is immaterial to me. I do not base my acting on my conscience on how others reward, thank or otherwise acknowledge.

I will say, at risk of going further off-topic, that over the years of buying and selling off pens, I've occasionally offered a pen at well below what I could get for it (on purpose). No one has ever warned me or thanked me for such an offering. No expectations for such; just sharing.

On another note, it is fascinating that we have this American idiom "it's a steal," and I wouldn't mind knowing the origin of the phrase. But I grant with others that the phrase does mean getting something so cheaply it seems like you've stolen it.

Cheers, my dears,
--Julie

[Cob]

I feel that some of you are taking the popular expression "It's a steal" far too literally; it is just that - an expression.

As for eBay, well putting something up for auction is always a risk; I have sold pens at large losses - similar pens fetched six times the price within a week or two. Equally I have sold pens at a good profit - pens I myself bought on eBay and restored. Auctions are a special case though.

In cases where people are selling items privately that's rather a different matter, and the concomitant circumstances would be taken into account by any decent person.

Cob

[orfew]

I am sorry for having brought rain to such a sunny parade. Be glad, then, in your bargains.

Why Jon ? You raised a point well worth discussion, a bit of "a fair days pay for a fair days work" attitude that few, if any, would disagree with in principle. You apply your beliefs to a situation and that's something that deserves respect.

Regards
Hugh

I agree. Jon, I have always found that your posts bring a thoughtful perspective to the conversation and this case has been no different.