The Philosophy of the "Steal"

[Jon Szanto]

Edit by dannzeman: I moved this conversation from Rusty888's topic Absolute steals from ebay as I thought it warranted its own thread. Let the discussion continue.


Here's a tougher question: any of you find a deal so good, so obviously because of a clueless seller, that you told them, and either offered to pay more, or alerted them ahead of time so they could not get taken by others?

I can think of two times I msg'd sellers with BIN items that were way, way too low, and I've sent an additional payment to a person when I realized the true valuation of a pen that I wasn't all that familiar with.

[Farmboy]

Here's a tougher question: any of you find a deal so good, so obviously because of a clueless seller, that you told them, and either offered to pay more, or alerted them ahead of time so they could not get taken by others?

I can think of two times I msg'd sellers with BIN items that were way, way too low, and I've sent an additional payment to a person when I realized the true valuation of a pen that I wasn't all that familiar with.

Yes. Most recently the neighbor kids (the new ones, not the old ones) were having a garage sale. Rather unorganized and no apparent thought to the pricing process. Found a large stock of half made Lego sets in a box. The 6 year old wanted them almost as much as I did. 9 or 10 year old kid says 1.00. I gave him 25 and told him to raise his prices. Don't think he had ever seen a 20...

He is now my best friend to boot, well at least I'm the cool guy across the street.

[VertOlive]

John: No, but I've had coversations with an uninformed seller about the parts of a fountain pen and why her buyers will want to know about the "nib".

I've gotten a couple deals, but not steals, usually from overstocked sellers who dropped their prices that week.

[Laura N]

Here's a tougher question: any of you find a deal so good, so obviously because of a clueless seller, that you told them, and either offered to pay more, or alerted them ahead of time so they could not get taken by others?

I can think of two times I msg'd sellers with BIN items that were way, way too low, and I've sent an additional payment to a person when I realized the true valuation of a pen that I wasn't all that familiar with.

Yes. Most recently the neighbor kids (the new ones, not the old ones) were having a garage sale. Rather unorganized and no apparent thought to the pricing process. Found a large stock of half made Lego sets in a box. The 6 year old wanted them almost as much as I did. 9 or 10 year old kid says 1.00. I gave him 25 and told him to raise his prices. Don't think he had ever seen a 20...

He is now my best friend to boot, well at least I'm the cool guy across the street.

While absolutely meritorious, if I were to put on my "The Ethicist" hat, I'd say it's not the same question Jon posed. One would likely treat a neighbor differently than a stranger, both because one knows the neighbor as a human being and because one expects to encounter the neighbor and his family frequently. Also, people usually would treat a child differently than an adult.

Now, I've read enough on these forums to know that plenty of people would have not just grabbed the $1 Legos from the little boy, but likely tried to bargain him down. Muttering "it's a zero sum game" and "that's how he'll learn a lesson; he should thank me." So good for you; many kudos. You taught all those kids a good lesson, too, about honesty and doing the right thing.

But Jon's situation involves a faceless encounter between strangers over computer monitors on eBay, a situation where everyone is trying to outwit and outbid others, and to "steal" a deal or as a seller to get the highest price possible. I think it's harder in that situation for many to tell a seller that an item the buyer is interested in is priced too low, and that they should increase the price. Much less pay money more later, as Jon did.

We all know that even on a forum there are people who are dishonest and scam other members, or try to. I think Jon's behavior is much more rare.

Speaking of Legos, I want to get my youngest daughter that female scientist set.

[Rusty888]

I feel there is a difference between auctions and buy it now prices. My 146 was an auction starting bid and I was the only bidder.

[Jon Szanto]

I see little to no distinction between the two, when the bottom line is a seller who has obviously underpriced an object through lack of knowledge. Yes, it is *not* my job or responsibility to do their work for them, but sometimes it seems clear enough that it warrants my attention. Don't get me wrong, I'm no saint, but when the subject title of this thread actually refers to theft, I felt it needed addressing.

[tandaina]

I honestly probably wouldn't on Ebay. Just because of previous experiences trying to educate sellers where I was told to mind my own business and ruder things.

And a low starting bid doesn't mean the seller doesn't know what something us worth. That's often a tactic to entice more folks into bidding. People get hooked on the oooo a deal thing and end up bidding higher. Sometimes an auction doesn't get noticed and that tactic fails but it works a LOT. There aren't a lot of 'silly old widows' on Ebay anymore. Vast majority of folks know exactly what they are doing...

Scoring something for a low auction is not theft. It's the nature of how auctions work. Sometimes the seller wins (a lot to be honest) sometimes the buyer.

[Kaputnik]

Probably the best bargain I found on eBay was $8.33, including shipping, for a Sheaffer Admiral Touchdown filler. The pen was in great shape except that it needed the filling system fixed. I've repaired quite a few simple lever fillers by now, but this one I sent out to Danny Fudge, so add another $25 to the cost. Still a good price, but hardly a steal anymore.

I've found other good prices by being patient and willing to lose a lot of auctions before I win one, but nothing really stunning, no $200 items for $20. I don't think I would feel guilty about scoring something for a small fraction of its worth, but I might wonder, if the seller didn't know enough to set a higher starting price, if it could it be a stolen item. If I somehow suspected that it was stolen, I wouldn't bid, but it's hard to say what might tip me off.

And for those who sell on eBay (which I have not done yet) there's another question. Say that you're selling a nice restored Esterbrook which might go for $30-40 at the outside. Two obvious eBay novices get into a silly real time bidding war against each other, and before you know it, one of them has "won" it for $200. Do you explain to him that he's made a bad decision, and offer him a chance to back out? In such a case, I hope that's how I would act, but again, it hasn't actually come up yet.

[mhosea]

I think online venues are different, especially eBay, since the tools to research past sale prices is right there at your fingertips. The trouble of listing limits the breadth of the problem at least, and if you don't know what something is worth, for heaven's sake just make it an auction. Where I worry more are garage sales, like the one my mother had prior to clearing out on a short sale of her Florida home some few years after my father passed away. No estate sale service was interested, she had to sell stuff, she was overwhelmed, not to mention stressed, and she was in no position to price most of it. My brother was the only one in proximity, and he was overwhelmed, too, I think. People took advantage, and it added up. She needed the money because unbeknownst to her children, she had used her retirement savings up paying the mortgage on a home she ultimately wouldn't be able to keep. I also worry about garage sales where some of the belongings of the relatively recently deceased are sold. A spouse may not realize items, like gold coins, are actually gold, and are investments that their spouse intended for them to have. These are not "ethical" questions, IMHO. Business ethics does not require you to look after the interests of strangers in need. But being "civilized" does.

[mmahany]

I think there is a tremendous difference between taking advantage of a person's situation and taking advantage of a person's laziness.

I refuse to take advantage of people affected by factors outside of their control (age, mental capacity, misfortune, etc).

However, I will absolutely take advantage of a situation where a perfectly capable seller fails to educate themselves and prices an item well below what I'd be willing to pay.

There is a difference between someone going through a rough time and someone who is, quite honestly, lazy. With modern technology, there's no excuse for people not to spend 1-2 minutes googling an item's value. If the seller can't afford a computer....that's understandable. If the seller doesn't WANT a computer, not my problem.

To those that offered your own opinions, I'll ask you one simple question: where do you draw the line?

What if a Mom and Pop store was severely underpricing an item? Would you tell them?
What if Wal-Mart severely underpriced an item? How about then?

Many of you probably wouldn't tell Wal-Mart, but I'd have to question why. If Wal-Mart priced every item too low, they'd go out of business and millions would be without jobs. I'd argue that that's more important than telling just one person.

I can't understand why I should feel obligated to educate people for free. Not only that, but why I should feel obligated to educate people AT MY OWN EXPENSE.

This is simple economics. A capable seller can offer an item at whatever price they wish. As that price lowers, the target buying audience becomes larger and larger.

Bottom line: If a capable seller offers an item and it's below what I'm willing to pay, I'll happily give them their asking price. It's not my place to tell them how much to sell it for just like it isn't their place to tell me how much to pay.

[Jon Szanto]

I can't understand ...

Noted.

[Rusty888]

This has got heated a little bit.

Perhaps steal was the wrong word.

Knowingly taking advantage is different. I've sold golf items on eBay and lost on auctions and also sold for more than retail.

I have no personal moral dilemma as people can choose to have a minimum price.

Also the number one rule is know your worth. I was taught this both in a professional work sense with my salary, what information you have and what your selling. It's the difference between how much you are prepared to fight for it

When I sell items I usually price them low and people get a Bargain. Reason? I can't be bothered spending time and countless emails over 10 20 or 30 dollars on a 100 item. I'd prefer one email and be done

However I will say this. In my experience theory is great however real life acceptance is different.

[Jon Szanto]

This has got heated a little bit.

Perhaps steal was the wrong word.

Perhaps.

On the other hand, it did allow for a more in-depth examination of how people react in these situations, and the thread has given me quite a bit to think about.

[GING GING]

[QUOTE=Jon Szanto;107577]I see little to no distinction between the two, when the bottom line is a seller who has obviously underpriced an object through lack of knowledge. Yes, it is *not* my job or responsibility to do their work for them, but sometimes it seems clear enough that it warrants my attention. Don't get me wrong, I'm no saint, but when the subject title of this thread actually refers to theft, I felt it needed addressing.[/
Jon, don't be so modest. Of course, you're a saint

[mmahany]

I can't understand ...

Noted.

Perhaps you can help me understand?

[Farmboy]

I see little to no distinction between the two, when the bottom line is a seller who has obviously underpriced an object through lack of knowledge. Yes, it is *not* my job or responsibility to do their work for them, but sometimes it seems clear enough that it warrants my attention. Don't get me wrong, I'm no saint, but when the subject title of this thread actually refers to theft, I felt it needed addressing.

Jon, don't be so modest. Of course, you're a saint

Test

[GING GING]

Farm boy. You edited your post down to the word test. Were you trying to say hello? Back at ya' farm boy.

[mhosea]

Searching for great deals is part of the fun. If your business is buying and selling things, my only interest is in whether what I think is an incorrect price is a clerical error or not. I don't see the difference between Wal-Mart and a mom-and-pop store in this matter. If it's an online venue, I generally assume that you've done your due diligence. Indeed, you may know something I don't. I've eaten some and come out well on some. I worry a little about garage sales and the like, that's all. It's not like people will always tell you their circumstances, especially in a case like my mother's.

[AZBennett]

I have educated a seller on ebay a few times. She has since then messaged me with other FP questions so she lists them correctly. I have contacted a couple other sellers with advice and never heard back. I have run across three pens I consider deals.
1. I got a Packard beater for 7 bucks to teach myself pen repairs on, when it arrived it had a full flex Waterman nib on it that was absolutely gorgeous!
2. I bought an unbranded BCHR eyedropper for a couple bucks (shipping cost more than the pen price) it also showed up with a gorgeous full flex 14k unmarked nib.
3. Most recently I scored a pristine Skyline cap and Gold derby for 5 bucks BIN. I thought that was a great deal.

[HughC]

Here's a tougher question: any of you find a deal so good, so obviously because of a clueless seller, that you told them, and either offered to pay more, or alerted them ahead of time so they could not get taken by others?

I can think of two times I msg'd sellers with BIN items that were way, way too low, and I've sent an additional payment to a person when I realized the true valuation of a pen that I wasn't all that familiar with.

No. In my business (agriculture) I have no choice at times but to sell below cost of production, sometimes it's been for years. The buyers don't care, the processors don't care and the end user doesn't care. I take the good with the bad, it's just reality.