Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

[Chrissy]

...One day I hope to visit a large US pen show and see for myself....

Pssst! http://miamipenshow.com

Fred

July in Florida! Wow that would be hot.

I went to Florida in July. Once. Parts of me are still stuck to the car seat.

Ouch!

[DaveBj]

...One day I hope to visit a large US pen show and see for myself....

Pssst! http://miamipenshow.com

Fred

July in Florida! Wow that would be hot.

I went to Florida in July. Once. Parts of me are still stuck to the car seat.

I live in Alabama. Florida can't show me nuthin'.

[Sandy Fry]

In each case there was an Old Guard and the New Guys and things were pretty much sammo sammo.

In each case the Old Guard and the New Guys ended up at the bar in the evening.

In each case Old Guard and New Guys found stuff they could talk about as well as stuff they could argue passionately about.

In each case the Old Guard and the New Guys often ended up say, "What's that one? Tell me about it? Can I try it?"

Only seldom did it end involving pink slips.

If this was the case the issue wouldn't be in front of us. Believe me, I don't wish it, and I've actively tried to foster improvement. It is undeniable, but maybe only so if you are actually there, that there is friction. Or, at the very least, not nearly as optimal and positive a mix as one would like. Your examples are in the past, and while I don't discount them in the least, there are societal changes that are affecting the situation we describe above. It *is* a new millenium, and there are aspects that are not "same old".

Hi guys,
haven't posted in a while ( or bought any pens in a while for that matter ) but I am a little confused by this topic. We are all here because of a shared love of Fountain Pens right? So what does it matter if some folks drool over their pens ( and never use them ) and others use theirs?
I have never been a big fan of this " old guard " and " new blood " mentality. Times change and you either change with it or you cling on to the past. Or, you embrace both.
Remember old British motorcycles? You could spot an owner by one of their legs being way bigger than the other from trying to get that sucker to kick start! Cars used to be started by a hand crank. There are still old British bikes out there and some folks restore them as they once were ( including their brutal kick starts ) and some folks restore them with electronic ignition ( I know! Shocking eh? ) because it is simpler.
The " new blood " can learn from the " OG's " but the " OG's " can also learn from the " new blood " and all it takes is an open mind. It would be rather dull if we all liked the exact same thing. There will come a time when there are few ( if any ) people left who know how to repair a vintage pen. We live in a "throw away " society. Swipe left!
We are fighting a losing battle and the only way to win is to accept each others' point of view and try to learn from each other.

David

[Empty_of_Clouds]

I don't have any issue with there being groups of people with disparate views on fountain pens, unless the behaviour of one group negatively impacts on the other. How that would happen I leave to speculation.

[Jon Szanto]

... but I am a little confused by this topic. We are all here because of a shared love of Fountain Pens right?

I still have failed to adequately frame the issue. It probably started in the first post or so, and I wish I could clarify it better.

I've been reading along, after having commented a fair amount at the outset. I think there are two areas in play here, and they exhibit a little differently:

• In the online pen communities/forums, there has always seemed to have been a bit of wariness between new users and old hands at pen gathering. It wasn't so prominent when pens were a little less in vogue, but the last few years have seen a big uptick. As such, the differing arenas have focused themselves, with newer pen people ending up in places like reddit and newer 'penpersonalities' broadcasting from blogs and personal sites.
• Out in the non-virtual world, the two main groups come together at pen shows with distinctly different interests and agendas, and it seems as though we are still trying to find ways to have each group learn from the other, and find value and interest in what the others are involved in.

Again, I'm finding it hard to put into words. I'll simply say that there are people who are new to the 'hobby' or interest who have had fairly negative things to say about the pen people and endeavors that have been around for a while and, conversely, I've heard from a number of older collectors and pen people who have been frustrated by the expectations and attitudes of the newest batch of pen afficianados.

The good part is that there does seem to be more interest in having both groups benefit from each other, and at the very least appeciate the differing aesthetics. Maybe it is time to let this settle and try to engage some of those who were most unhappy, to see what they think could make for a better mix. It may just take time, or maybe there will be parallel areas that skid alongside each other.

Even if it seems like things don't make sense, I appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts.

[kazoolaw]

"In the online pen communities/forums, there has always seemed to have been a bit of wariness between new users and old hands at pen gathering."

Jon, I appreciate your efforts, but think this sentence could have been clearer. Did you mean that postings in forums report bits of wariness between new user and old hands which doesn't actually exist at the gatherings themselves? Or is there actual wariness at the gatherings which shouldn't be reported? Or does deleting the opening phrase express the issue you want to address? Or is there wariness online and at gatherings, and both need to be addressed?

I have a sense, and it's only that, you started by talking about gatherings and the topic has expanded beyond that.

gary

[AzJon]

Perhaps an example would be apt:

New Pen Person goes to show hoping to score a mint condition XYZ vintage pen. NPP brings a lot of cash because they expect the prices to be high. NPP finds a dealer that has a mint condition, stickered, never-before-used XYZ pen. NPP inquires and, out of their crushing desire for said pen, agrees to pay the hundreds of dollars the pen is being sold for. In their excitement, NPP asks the seller if Whatever Brand ink is safe for vintage. Aghast, the seller now refuses to sell the pen to someone that would dare ink it. The seller is affronted because NPP wants to fill the pen and use it and NPP is offended because it's their money, the item is for sale, and a pen is made for using. Both groups leave disgruntled with negative opinions of each other.

These stories, while possibly rare, do come up online in other parts of the internet. I recall a specific story maybe a year ago about someone being chewed by someone offering nib services because they could tell, by the smell no-less, that the ink in the pen was Noodler's (poster pointed out that the ink was, in fact, Waterman). A pen person, relatively new to pens was demeaned and chastised on false accusations. Again, is this common? Maybe not, but, as they say, 1 negative turns 10 positives sour.

[penwash]

The " new blood " can learn from the " OG's " but the " OG's " can also learn from the " new blood " and all it takes is an open mind. It would be rather dull if we all liked the exact same thing. There will come a time when there are few ( if any ) people left who know how to repair a vintage pen. We live in a "throw away " society. Swipe left!
We are fighting a losing battle and the only way to win is to accept each others' point of view and try to learn from each other.

David

David, I'm referring to your sentence above. "can learn" yes, absolutely, I would even go as far as saying "should learn" but unless I'm severely under-informed, that is not happening. At least not happening enough.

And some here still think that this is about enforcing what we like to others. How you guys make that jump, that part I just can't understand
No one is promoting that OG and NB forcing each other to adopt their own respective way. That would be insane and a recipe for a thousand disasters.

What some of us are promoting is a better way for OG, NB, DZ, MB, Bla .. bla bla other group, to share knowledge effectively and frequently, without alienating each other.
Pen Shows just happen to be one type of venue where these different generation/group/users/collector of FP *can* come and meet. But in this information age, it can happen literally anytime anywhere. How to make this happen more often. That, I thought the discussion is about.

[kazoolaw]

Perhaps an example would be apt:
Both groups leave disgruntled with negative opinions of each other.
* * *
Again, is this common? Maybe not, but, as they say, 1 negative turns 10 positives sour.

Recall that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data.*

gary

*-when I can remember whose line that is I'll return with the citation.

[AzJon]

Perhaps an example would be apt:
Both groups leave disgruntled with negative opinions of each other.
* * *
Again, is this common? Maybe not, but, as they say, 1 negative turns 10 positives sour.

Recall that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data.*

gary

*-when I can remember whose line that is I'll return with the citation.

It is a phrase attributed to a couple different people.

That besides, as a data set of 1, I was the one turned off by the idea of a pen show for my first year of pen collecting by the Noodler's-that-is-actually-Waterman report. Take that as you will.

[mhosea]

That besides, as a data set of 1, I was the one turned off by the idea of a pen show for my first year of pen collecting by the Noodler's-that-is-actually-Waterman report. Take that as you will.

I would have been, too. One of OG once assumed that Noodler's was my favorite ink because I had the temerity to point out the lack of properly-collected data behind the anti-Noodler's claims. I was not amused. Perhaps I should have been, given that I actually don't even like Noodler's inks. King Philip Requiem is the only one I still have. I sold or gave away the others, and I only use KPR in a few beater pens on the theory that it just might be radioactive or something.

[Sammyo]

Perhaps an example would be apt:
Both groups leave disgruntled with negative opinions of each other.
* * *
Again, is this common? Maybe not, but, as they say, 1 negative turns 10 positives sour.

Recall that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data.*

gary

*-when I can remember whose line that is I'll return with the citation.

It is a phrase attributed to a couple different people.

That besides, as a data set of 1, I was the one turned off by the idea of a pen show for my first year of pen collecting by the Noodler's-that-is-actually-Waterman report. Take that as you will.

I too gave examples (data) of negative and positive experiences at the same show. Me being "young" to the OG fountain pen world (36 years of age at the time!!!). There are definitely nightmare stories out there... but I think mainly it is something that build over a time of small incidents. You reach a point of "I just can't be bothered to deal with that or the chance of X". By the way, this goes both ways and is the same for all sides.

However, the longer I immerse myself, the more good I see. I feel it is only really a surface tension and not a deep rooted thing. Preconceptions lead you to what is essentially a prejudice (pre-judging somebody based on past experience or incorrect assumptions), this is what hurts the most... "e'eryone tar'd wi' the same brush!". Reading this thread I get a strong sense of "Yeah, I agree we see it... but it's not me!". Maybe the people that read this thread and feel strong enough to contribute are not the people that need to be reached. But, we are the people that can make a difference and spread better information and positive "vibes" within our own respective spheres to try and bridge the gap and foster better communication. As others have said, we don't all need to think the same, but it helps if we understand each other and learn from all aspects and corners of our love of fountain pens.

I have made mistakes, I have done dumb things, I have made prejudiced decisions... but I have learned from them and tried to do things better as I move forwards.

Love you all,

SamO

[Sandy Fry]

Jon,
I get where you are coming from but you are always going to have folks with differing views butting heads.

As I said, the trick is to have both sides have an open mind to each others' point of view.

I wouldn't classify myself as a collector ( although I have around 200 pens ) but more of a user. I like modern pens. I also like vintage pens. I favor CC fillers for the convenience but as long as the pen does what it is designed to do, put ink on the paper, I am not against any type of filling mechanism.

I may have pens that you absolutely hate but I am not going to argue with you about it. I will listen to your thoughts on it and hope that you listen to my thoughts about it. Even if we have vastly differing opinions on a pen, any pen, surely all that matters is our shared love of pens???

I honestly still don't get the problem. Kids think they know everything and OG's think they know better because they have been around longer. That's been the way of the world for eons.

I am new to this ' hobby ' but I think I have learned a lot here from both OG's and newer folks.

In the end, a pen is still a pen.

David

[Sandy Fry]

The " new blood " can learn from the " OG's " but the " OG's " can also learn from the " new blood " and all it takes is an open mind. It would be rather dull if we all liked the exact same thing. There will come a time when there are few ( if any ) people left who know how to repair a vintage pen. We live in a "throw away " society. Swipe left!
We are fighting a losing battle and the only way to win is to accept each others' point of view and try to learn from each other.

David

David, I'm referring to your sentence above. "can learn" yes, absolutely, I would even go as far as saying "should learn" but unless I'm severely under-informed, that is not happening. At least not happening enough.

And some here still think that this is about enforcing what we like to others. How you guys make that jump, that part I just can't understand
No one is promoting that OG and NB forcing each other to adopt their own respective way. That would be insane and a recipe for a thousand disasters.

What some of us are promoting is a better way for OG, NB, DZ, MB, Bla .. bla bla other group, to share knowledge effectively and frequently, without alienating each other.
Pen Shows just happen to be one type of venue where these different generation/group/users/collector of FP *can* come and meet. But in this information age, it can happen literally anytime anywhere. How to make this happen more often. That, I thought the discussion is about.

Hi,
maybe I just don't come here enough but I have seen very little negativity and what little I have seen, I have ignored.

I don't think anyone is forcing their beliefs on anyone else and if they are then they are just not worth listening to. I will listen to what anyone has to say and if I don't agree, I will say so. However, I will have a valid argument as to why I don't agree rather than just say I don't agree. I don't like that particular pen. Why? Just because. That isn't a valid point to me and as far as I am concerned that person has no value to me and is adding no value to the discussion.

I go to the Los Angeles pen show ( missed it this year due to work commitments ) by myself. The only people I have spoken with are vendors. I go, see something that I like and buy it if I have the funds. It's really that simple. If I were to go with someone more knowledgeable than me, I would appreciate their advice but still buy what I like.

You can get as many differing groups together as you like but you will always have people alienating other people. As I said in an earlier post, it's all about having an open mind and accepting that not everyone has the same views. However, there are those people that will argue that black is white, they are right and you are wrong, and that will never go away. If you can have a discussion with someone who has a different view than you and walk away having learned something ( and hopefully they did too ) rather than talking to folks who still believe the world is flat, then your time has not been wasted.

Personally, I like pens. Don't care if there are folks out there who don't like my pens. I like them. I use them. If there is knowledge I can pass on, I will pass it on. If they don't want to learn or think they know more, good for them. I ain't gonna lose sleep over it.

Thanks for your reply sir.

Oh, and I think that this site is a perfectly good way to share knowledge effectively. Whether people choose to use or listen to that knowledge is out of our control.

David

[TSherbs]

All of us don't know shit. Only ego gets caught up in these distinctions and categories. Go love, pray, or meditate and remember that "things" are worthless and impermanent and that categories of users are false projections of our minds.

Sent from my BLU ADVANCE 5.0 HD using Tapatalk

[Jon Szanto]

Thanks again for the varied contributions. Things will ease up a lot for me after the weekend, but I just want you to know I'm enjoying gathering opinions and experiences, and will write when time allows me to be cogent.

In the meantime, a fine young calligrapher Nikola Pang, who is a member of the SF Posse, posted this article from an attendee at the LA Show. It gives me hope that things aren't always as bad as some report, and I thought it was a very well written article with a bit of an outsider's viewpoint. I hope you might enjoy it.

Uniting In A Niche

[Marsilius]

Nice feature. Thanks for sharing it.

[Kaputnik]

Perhaps an example would be apt:
Both groups leave disgruntled with negative opinions of each other.
* * *
Again, is this common? Maybe not, but, as they say, 1 negative turns 10 positives sour.

Recall that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data.*

gary

*-when I can remember whose line that is I'll return with the citation.

Oh good, a chance to quibble about semantics.

Actually there's a good argument that the plural of anecdote is data. A single anecdote is a datum. Gather enough anecdotes, and you have a data set.*

Of course, you may not have a good data set. How you select and gather your anecdotes affects how accurately they portray reality. Confirmation bias may cause you to select (or even notice) only the anecdotes that go along with what you already think. But get enough stories from people who were in a particular situation, such as interacting with other people at a pen show, and you may get some idea of what to expect.

I say that without any opinions about the main topic of this thread. My only contacts with other fountain pen enthusiasts have been over the Internet. I haven't sought out any pen clubs, and a pen show is on my "maybe someday when I get around to it list" of things that I'm not really sure I want to do anyway.

Personally, just from the Internet, I know that there are people who approach fountain pens in ways that I would not. Live and let live, and I'm willing to learn from anyone who has information that's interesting or useful.

*Not my original observation, but I also can't remember whom to credit for pointing this out.

[AzJon]

Oh good, a chance to quibble about semantics.

Actually there's a good argument that the plural of anecdote is data. A single anecdote is a datum. Gather enough anecdotes, and you have a data set.*

Of course, you may not have a good data set. How you select and gather your anecdotes affects how accurately they portray reality.

*snort*

Ok, that made me laugh.

[Bob]

Regardless of how positive or negative this thread gets, it's still good, it moves the ball forward.