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Thread: Definition of Christian

  1. #181
    Senior Member Fermata's Avatar
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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    I know too many people that have had life changing moments, call it Damascene events if you like, not to have a rock solid belief and Faith.

    And I thank God every day for that.
    Exactly. Muhammad and the Buddha are two such examples.

    .....and Fermata.

    Perhaps not as well known.
    Last edited by Fermata; March 19th, 2018 at 11:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    I know too many people that have had life changing moments, call it Damascene events if you like, not to have a rock solid belief and Faith.

    And I thank God every day for that.
    I think many people have had a share of those, life is full of a range of experiences. Can't see why such a thing would make me believe in a god, unless I already did.

  3. #183
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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    [QUOTE=jar;234585]
    Quote Originally Posted by Drubbing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    I'm be new here, but not to the discussion of religion. I need to believe in things that make sense, not in accepting faith based arguments that require adherence for their own sake, for fear of retribution before or after death. I'm quite capable of being a good person without being told how it's done. For your context, I'm Catholic school raised from kindergarten to high school and I rejected all of it whilst still a child - even though I wasn't fully cognisant of this at the time. It seemed to be an antiquated theatre, with defined traditions and customs, but far too many contradictions to hold water when thought about.

    All of which are experiences covered in your interesting post, which refers to god as a fictional character. Yes, god's character does change with bible chapters and versions. That's because men wrote the books. Some later versions were written for social and political reasons. Which makes a fallacy of the book being his words.
    And your tale reflects the topic extremely well. Had Christianity been present to you as a child in a different fashion; had the stories been placed in context related to the era and mythos of the period when they were created; had the concept of GOD as a creator been discriminated from God(mixed case) the character in a particular story or god(lower case) the creation of different humans trying to come to terms with the unknown and unexplained realities would your experience have been different?
    Struggling to see what your response is driving at, but I think a simple No, still suffices. It doesn't matter how differently presented religion would have been, it wouldn't make me any more open to it. While i was hardly any sort of rebel, I also wasn't one to run with the herd either and do what other people did without considering why and what the point was. Although a child I looked at it all with a cynical eye, and wondered why people would believe such things. Clearly some people need something as a belief system.

    Where I have a problem with religion is when it is being hard sold to me as the only answer to living, and I am some sort of evil or lesser person for not being sold. Religion seems to do a lot of judging and requiring obedience for its own sake.
    Last edited by Drubbing; March 20th, 2018 at 07:04 AM.

  4. #184
    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Drubbing View Post
    Religion seems to do a lot of judging and requiring obedience for its own sake.
    My question revolves around that point. If religion had been presented as non-judgemental and explaining the practical reasons for certain behaviors would your position be different?

    Sticking within the Christian spectrum, had Christianity been presented as one possible path to follow among many possible paths and instead of Commandments (613 "Thou Shalt Not"s) as a series of reasoned ethical and moral choices would you have reacted differently to the very concept of religion? Had it accepted non-belief as an equally valid option would that have changed your position on religion itself?

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    Senior Member Fermata's Avatar
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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Drubbing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    I know too many people that have had life changing moments, call it Damascene events if you like, not to have a rock solid belief and Faith.

    And I thank God every day for that.
    I think many people have had a share of those, life is full of a range of experiences. Can't see why such a thing would make me believe in a god, unless I already did.
    Is this meant to be provocative? I have seen your troll posts elsewhere on the net and guess this is another.

    If you were Saul on the road, and you had a dramatic life changing experience, as I have, do you really say that it would not make you believe in a god. Either very confident in your atheism or something else.

    As someone once said, dont feed the troll, so I am stepping out.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drubbing View Post
    Religion seems to do a lot of judging and requiring obedience for its own sake.
    My question revolves around that point. If religion had been presented as non-judgemental and explaining the practical reasons for certain behaviors would your position be different?

    Sticking within the Christian spectrum, had Christianity been presented as one possible path to follow among many possible paths and instead of Commandments (613 "Thou Shalt Not"s) as a series of reasoned ethical and moral choices would you have reacted differently to the very concept of religion? Had it accepted non-belief as an equally valid option would that have changed your position on religion itself?

    I don't like bananas. If they tasted like apples then I would like them, but then they wouldn't be bananas though, so...

  7. #187
    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drubbing View Post
    Religion seems to do a lot of judging and requiring obedience for its own sake.
    My question revolves around that point. If religion had been presented as non-judgemental and explaining the practical reasons for certain behaviors would your position be different?

    Sticking within the Christian spectrum, had Christianity been presented as one possible path to follow among many possible paths and instead of Commandments (613 "Thou Shalt Not"s) as a series of reasoned ethical and moral choices would you have reacted differently to the very concept of religion? Had it accepted non-belief as an equally valid option would that have changed your position on religion itself?

    I don't like bananas. If they tasted like apples then I would like them, but then they wouldn't be bananas though, so...
    Is there a point hidden in that response somewhere?

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    It should be fairly obvious. Especially to one who regularly makes obtuse comments.

  9. #189
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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    It should be fairly obvious. Especially to one who regularly makes obtuse comments.
    Yet the reality is that any meaning is not apparent or seemingly relevant or reasoned.

    What does it have to do with the topic? Or religion? Or much of anything beyond a pointless truism?

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    It should be fairly obvious. Especially to one who regularly makes obtuse comments.
    Yet the reality is that any meaning is not apparent or seemingly relevant or reasoned.

    What does it have to do with the topic? Or religion? Or much of anything beyond a pointless truism?


    As is the case with many of the comments you post. Asking someone if their opinion on Christianity would be different if Christianity itself was presented differently (which is what you asked in #184), is essentially the same.

    Bananas are bananas. Apples are apples. Changing the name does not change their substance.

  11. #191
    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    It should be fairly obvious. Especially to one who regularly makes obtuse comments.
    Yet the reality is that any meaning is not apparent or seemingly relevant or reasoned.

    What does it have to do with the topic? Or religion? Or much of anything beyond a pointless truism?


    As is the case with many of the comments you post. Asking someone if their opinion on Christianity would be different if Christianity itself was presented differently (which is what you asked in #184), is essentially the same.

    Bananas are bananas. Apples are apples. Changing the name does not change their substance.
    But Christianity is not monolithic, there is no such thing as "The Christianity™" and when I suggest Christianity might be presented differently it does not change the fact that it is still Christianity; thus your attempted bumper sticker is still meaning less or at best a trivial truism.

    So again, is there some message or meaning or relevance in your posts in this thread?

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    dneal (March 24th, 2018)

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Of course there is meaning and relevance.

    ... when I suggest Christianity might be presented differently it does not change the fact that it is still Christianity
    Eat cake, have it too. That's what your statement implies. The way Christianity is presented is, I would argue, fundamental to the religion itself. To change details is to alter the religion.

    Clearer now?

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Of course there is meaning and relevance.

    ... when I suggest Christianity might be presented differently it does not change the fact that it is still Christianity
    Eat cake, have it too. That's what your statement implies. The way Christianity is presented is, I would argue, fundamental to the religion itself. To change details is to alter the religion.

    Clearer now?
    Not really at all. There are thousands of different versions of Christianity. So what is fundamental to a Chicago Statement of Inerrancy Christian may not be fundamental to a member of a different chapter of club Christian.

    That is in fact the actual topic.

    So once again, how are your posts related or relevant to the topic?

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    How are yours anything more than a hair-splitting attempt to drive an agenda (or sway an opinion)?

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    How are yours anything more than a hair-splitting attempt to drive an agenda (or sway an opinion)?
    Again, what does that have to do with the topic?

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    It relates to the late thread argument you are deploying, not the earlier parts.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    I understand what you are saying JAR, and I think that even if a child at an early age, is introduced to the best version of Christianity by the most well meaning and altruistic teachers, the ability of its message and corresponding faith sticking depend on the individual receiving the message. In this optimal scenario, I think you would end up with significantly more lifetime believers than normal Christian parishes achieve, but never achieve 100% success. Faith is very individual and some will choose to believe the tenets of Christianity but others will not believe, some for selfish reasons, but others for sound, logical reasons (most certainly logical to them) due to atheism or another religion.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Of course there is meaning and relevance.

    ... when I suggest Christianity might be presented differently it does not change the fact that it is still Christianity
    Eat cake, have it too. That's what your statement implies. The way Christianity is presented is, I would argue, fundamental to the religion itself. To change details is to alter the religion.

    Clearer now?
    Not really at all. There are thousands of different versions of Christianity. So what is fundamental to a Chicago Statement of Inerrancy Christian may not be fundamental to a member of a different chapter of club Christian.

    That is in fact the actual topic.

    So once again, how are your posts related or relevant to the topic?
    You can't posit hypotheticals about how Christianity might present itself differently, and then ask if someone would feel differently about the concept. Maybe they would. maybe not. Children, as you asked in an earlier question, is a different thing again. Some are more susceptible to suggestion, coercion and asserts of 'fact' that religion uses, than others. So some would some wouldn't, just as they do with current approaches.

    But Christianity doesn't present options of belief, or options for atheism, that's pretty much contradictory to how it operates. The thousands of different versions of Christianity, all shades of the same colour.
    Last edited by Drubbing; March 23rd, 2018 at 09:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drubbing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    I know too many people that have had life changing moments, call it Damascene events if you like, not to have a rock solid belief and Faith.

    And I thank God every day for that.
    I think many people have had a share of those, life is full of a range of experiences. Can't see why such a thing would make me believe in a god, unless I already did.
    Is this meant to be provocative? I have seen your troll posts elsewhere on the net and guess this is another.

    If you were Saul on the road, and you had a dramatic life changing experience, as I have, do you really say that it would not make you believe in a god. Either very confident in your atheism or something else.

    As someone once said, dont feed the troll, so I am stepping out.
    No, it's a civil discussion and I'm putting my viewpoint courteously to others. I'm being polite and civil with any responses here, so can't see any accusations of trolling as valid. My point was that people predisposed to religion will see or turn to a god in any major life event. I've had those too and haven't, because I'm not predisposed to the concept of religion or gods.

    I don't agree with religious belief, but if people want that in their lives that's their choice. But I do have issues with organised religion and the influence of the church on the lives of those who don't believe. My life and beliefs are none of the churches' business, and its mores and agendas should not dictate society as a whole.

    Plus, I don't get around the net that much, so if you've seen me 'troll' elsewhere, then one of us must be very busy online. Frankly, I don't have that much spare time and have limited interests.
    Last edited by Drubbing; March 23rd, 2018 at 09:29 AM.

  22. #200
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    Default Re: Definition of Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Drubbing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drubbing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fermata View Post
    I know too many people that have had life changing moments, call it Damascene events if you like, not to have a rock solid belief and Faith.

    And I thank God every day for that.
    I think many people have had a share of those, life is full of a range of experiences. Can't see why such a thing would make me believe in a god, unless I already did.
    Is this meant to be provocative? I have seen your troll posts elsewhere on the net and guess this is another.

    If you were Saul on the road, and you had a dramatic life changing experience, as I have, do you really say that it would not make you believe in a god. Either very confident in your atheism or something else.

    As someone once said, dont feed the troll, so I am stepping out.
    No, it's a civil discussion and I'm putting my viewpoint courteously to others. I'm being polite and civil with any responses here, so can't see any accusations of trolling as valid. My point was that people predisposed to religion will see or turn to a god in any major life event. I've had those too and haven't, because I'm not predisposed to the concept of religion or gods.

    I don't agree with religious belief, but if people want that in their lives that's their choice. But I do have issues with organised religion and the influence of the church on the lives of those who don't believe. My life and beliefs are none of the churches' business, and its mores and agendas should not dictate society as a whole.

    Plus, I don't get around the net that much, so if you've seen me 'troll' elsewhere, then one of us must be very busy online. Frankly, I don't have that much spare time and have limited interests.

    I have seen you provoke, annoy and belittle anyone who doesnt agree with you on two forums, stating your opinions as facts and goading people into a response even when you state, as you have done now, that the topic on 'what is a Christian' is not relevant as you dont agree with religous belief.

    If you dont have a dog in the race step away from the keyboard and stop being a Troll, and an annoying one at that.

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