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Thread: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    I have a hard time deciding which guard I belong to and have been leaning towards a no man's land hybrid user-collector. I have a couple of old pens that still have the original pricing sticker. I have inked one and am careful about keeping the sticker intact. The other has remained uninked for several years now. I do appreciate the older pens in my collection and use some but others get respected spots in my best pen case. They rarely come out to play unless I am taking photos of them or just showing them to friends in real life, of which only one or two truly appreciate them.

    I really want to go to a pen show bad but circumstances and finances have not aligned themselves to allow it. It would be a major prospect for me as it would be a family affair, and yet not, as none of my family would really be interested in attending. The closest show is a 12-hour drive away.
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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    Jon, you introduced this by saying: "Anyway, there is more to meets the eye than the reports that come online. If there wasn't, there wouldn't be a need for this discussion."

    I don't see a need for such a discussion. I will enjoy seeing different perspectives on the winds of change in the fountain pen "community," such as it is and also the business. But a "need" for discussion suggests some resolution that is impossible to fabricate, perhaps even impossible to predict. Most interesting to me is this seems to come up each year following the Los Angeles pen show.

    Last year, Sparky Armstrong got himself into a bit of a jam/controversy publishing some strong opinions on this topic after his first trip to the Los Angeles pen show. That show seems to be the epicenter of a perceived conflict between two poorly defined "factions." Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to find the whole tempest in a teapot amounts to no more than a few grumbling old timers who can't accept a changing world. I believe there is a whole lot less conflict and ill will than some disgruntled folks want us to think there is.

    Human relations are what they are. If people who think they are knowledgeable post things online or say things at pen shows and are dismissed, such is life. If a new person asks a rudimentary question, that's not cause for ridicule or disgust. Personally I respect Richard Binder; he has learned more about fountain pens than most of us will ever have time to forget. However, I also think in a lot of ways, he's a fuddy duddy. At the other end of the spectrum is Brian Goulet. Through his videos and social media reach he has provided more good, general fountain pen education than Binder could in 10 lifetimes. I respect Goulet for what he has done to bring hordes of people into the fountain pen world and for the almost miraculous creation of a business. Yet I don't personally like him even a little bit. I cringe at his manner and the Miss America Smile nature of his endlessly effervescent marketing materials. But it's all part of the fountain pen zoo we're in.

    Some of us communicate through social media. Some don't. Some folks like to sit around in their caves and fondle their flawless collectibles. Others spend their cave time changing inks, cleaning pens and writing/drawing -- putting ink on all their different papers. It's all okay, and if someone doesn't like what you do, that's on them.

    It's an amazing time in the fountain pen world. Jim Evers runs a family stationery business that goes back to 1932 (now iPenstore.com). He told me last year, “I’ve seen more new fountain pens introduced in the past two years than in my lifetime.” Bert Oser (Bertram’s Inkwell) told me, “A few years ago I was selling limited edition fountain pens to collectors. Today, I’m selling fountain pens in the $40 to $400 range to mostly younger people who are happily and diligently writing and using the pens.”

    There's plenty of room for everyone, Jon, even within the confines of pen shows. Yes, even the Los Angeles pen show!

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    Senior Member david i's Avatar
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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    Golly, not everyone likes the way everyone else conducts his life. This is a bit shocking.

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  7. #24
    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliant Bill View Post
    I don't see a need for such a discussion. [snip] There's plenty of room for everyone, Jon, even within the confines of pen shows. Yes, even the Los Angeles pen show!
    As you will, and we are all entitled to that wonder of our own opinion. Of course, I disagree (about discussion), and still think the topic is valid.

    (BTW: there is nothing anywhere, in any of my posts over a number of years, that would indicate I want anything less than an inclusive playing field.)

    I want to correct an impression: this is *not* simply about the LA Show. While I currently attend just the two main West coast shows, I keep tabs with vendors and participants from at least six other shows. I don't want to make this seem like a huge deal, either, but I do think that while there is a panorama of pen interests out there, we are in a period - which your statements from Evers and Oser back up - that is showing a remarkable resurgence in both a pen audience and new products. To claim that there aren't... interesting currents at work at pen shows today, that they aren't going through a (possibly) difficult change is to ignore some of the realities.

    At the base of it is people, like me, who want all elements to flourish. I may not be young in years, but my interests completely span both vintage and new, preservation of heritage as well as cutting-edge inks. And the people who enjoy all the various manner of pens should have ways to engage and support each other. Discussion does nothing to negate that, and if it seems silly or obtuse, you are free to pass on to the next thread, never again putting a thought to this at all.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Senior Member ethernautrix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    Jon, as you make clear that the discussion is important to you and to the "pen community" in general, what do you perceive as the danger in not having this discussion?

    I'm also not very clear on what is at the nut of "the discussion." That older, more experienced pen enthusiasts and younger, less experienced pen enthusiasts... don't overlap enough? And the potential consequences are...?

    If not clear, I'm not being argumentative; I'm trying to understand the problem.
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    Senior Member RocketRyan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    I have very much enjoyed reading this thread, so thought I would try and rationalise it, at least to myself. The only comparison I can think of is that of bikers. You get the Harley Davidson crowd who get as much enjoyment from polishing their pride and joy as they do riding them. At the other end of the spectrum the sports bike riders who just ride and only maintain when they must. No one is wrong in their opinion or usage, it's just the joy of a two wheeled machine is achieved in a very different way. Differing opinions, and even disagreement (as long as civil) can be a fun part of a hobby. I actually quite enjoy finding out what it is someone else enjoys about a hobby, and will even try and find that joy for myself.

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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    *snip*

    So, that's where we stand at the moment. That subtle dig of get some work done implies that I am a musician who doesn't ever do anything, in spite of the multitasking I am doing at the moment. But I'll be back with some more thoughts in a bit.

    *snip*
    I don't mean to do a derail, but what do you play, and in what context[s]? Just do there's an equal exchange of information, I play euphonium and baritone (British-type) in wind bands, brass bands, tuba-euphonium ensembles, and as a soloist, and southern-gospel piano and accordion.

    Back on topic, I have been aware of the on-line fountain pen world only in the last four years. I have never been to a pen show, but I have read this and the other discussion with great interest, in spite of the fact that sometimes they read like descriptions of alien worlds populated by strange creatures. The closest show to me in the April Atlanta show. Atlanta is 3+ hours away, so that would make for a long day (not that I can't do long days, even at my advanced age), but I'm thinking about going this year, if I can put some spending money together, to see if the show atmosphere is as wonderful (or as weird) as I've read.
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    Senior Member fountainpenkid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    Quote Originally Posted by ethernautrix View Post
    Jon, as you make clear that the discussion is important to you and to the "pen community" in general, what do you perceive as the danger in not having this discussion?

    I'm also not very clear on what is at the nut of "the discussion." That older, more experienced pen enthusiasts and younger, less experienced pen enthusiasts... don't overlap enough? And the potential consequences are...?

    If not clear, I'm not being argumentative; I'm trying to understand the problem.
    There isn't any danger, other than an already-present decay of legacy and understanding. I think David Nishimura's (of vintagepens.com) wonderful series of blog entries on this exact subject should be part of this discussion (see http://vintagepensblog.blogspot.com/...-users-vs.html) I have only a few personal experiences with this phenomenon which in one word I'll call factionalism, but it seems to me it is more of a problem of opinions rather than relationships themselves--the "old-timers (Nishimura distinguishes these traders as "first generation collectors") I've met and talked with have been friendly, generous and welcoming to me personally, but hold varying degrees of skepticism, criticism and disinterest in the current forms of "user" hobbying--colorful inks with intriguing properties, new pen companies, paper products etc. In my conversations with Brad Torelli, a member of the "first generation" who was at the early pen shows and making pens nearly thirty years ago, I have started to understand this aversion--it's a sense that vintage pens are not being fully appreciated, their brilliance not fully understood by new generations. Jon is right that misunderstandings exist and probably limit people's full enjoyment on both sides, but how to "bridge the gap" is not clear to me. Of course, it's important to point out the lack of any real binary; the murkiness of cultural analysis couldn't be more present than in this case.
    Last edited by fountainpenkid; February 21st, 2017 at 05:10 PM. Reason: bad editing
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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    I'll be back (hopefully) later in the day with some responses. Had a bit of laser zapping in the eye this morning, and it is a little hurty. Not bailing, just resting...
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    Quote Originally Posted by ethernautrix View Post
    Jon, as you make clear that the discussion is important to you and to the "pen community" in general, what do you perceive as the danger in not having this discussion?

    I'm also not very clear on what is at the nut of "the discussion." That older, more experienced pen enthusiasts and younger, less experienced pen enthusiasts... don't overlap enough? And the potential consequences are...?

    If not clear, I'm not being argumentative; I'm trying to understand the problem.
    I am not answering for Jon. But here's how I see it.

    Without these "discussions" the two groups of fountain pen users (ie. present and next generations) are in danger of complete alienation toward each other (that's typically what will happen when two groups perceived each other with leery eyes due to not enough understanding and empathy).

    If that were to happen, how then the decades of accumulated wealth of knowledge about fountain pen history can be transferred from the current holder to the next generation?

    If the loss of knowledge -- within the context of fountain pens -- is not perceived as a danger (or at the least a very sad outcome) then yes, there is not a single issue, and we should continue our own merry way and just let things fall where they may.

    By the way, I see no need nor thrust in this "discussions" to dictate how one should be relating to a fountain pen. Users would continue to be users, and collectors would be collectors, and those who are "smart enough" (said with a smile ) will continue to be both users and collectors. There is indeed enough space for both types and more. The only question here is whether respect and collaboration is proactively fostered, or not.
    Last edited by penwash; February 21st, 2017 at 08:38 PM.
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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    I have never met in the flesh a person who has gone to a pen show, nor do I know even one "collector" of pens, whatever criteria that might be. My experience is exactly opposite to that described by farmboy: I know only users and only, say, ten other person's who ever uses a fountain pen. The distinctions described here are foreign to me, and therefore of no consequence or meaning to me. The fewer sensibilities of distinction, the better, IMO.

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  21. #32
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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post

    I am not answering for Jon. But here's how I see it.

    Without these "discussions" the two groups of fountain pen users (ie. present and next generations) are in danger of complete alienation toward each other (that's typically what will happen when two groups perceived each other with leery eyes due to not enough understanding and empathy).

    If that were to happen, how then the decades of accumulated wealth of knowledge about fountain pen history can be transferred from the current holder to the next generation?

    If the loss of knowledge -- within the context of fountain pens -- is not perceived as a danger (or at the least a very sad outcome) then yes, there is not a single issue, and we should continue our own merry way and just let things fall where they may be.

    By the way, I see no need nor thrust in this "discussions" to dictate how one should be relating to a fountain pen. Users would continue to be users, and collectors would be collectors, and those who are "smart enough" (said with a smile ) will continue to be both users and collectors. There is indeed enough space for both types and more. The only question here is whether respect and collaboration is proactively fostered, or not.
    There is the option of those people who have institutional knowledge record that knowledge and make it available to future generations. Who knows, maybe they could even write it out.

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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    I'm not sure it is interesting to say, but I've been to a few pen shows, and they weren't a social events for me. I didn't meet up with old friends or make new ones. I did look for opportunities to socialize, but I guess I wasn't focused enough on that, or perhaps my INTP-ness impinged. Basically I shopped for pens. I went to a gun show once and had exactly the same experience (though I didn't buy any guns that day, just a nice hand-made leather belt ).
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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    My experience of pen shows is limited, but I can say that the reason that I've gone to them has only partly been for the sake of seeing pens and inks and papers (quite a bit of which you can find online); I went to meet up with people and experience community, which I think I found at the Dallas Pen Show (the only one I've gone to so far). I have to say it was a delightful experience both times. I had found a place where I could "get my geek on." Honestly, I don't think I had had such a fun time in -- well, maybe ever! It was like nothing else. This last time, I hung out a lot with caribbean skye, who seems to know everybody, and sharmon, and we met up with people in the evenings who were newer to pens and some who really knew their pens. It seemed to me that most were users, though a few were also collectors. I didn't notice any snobbery from anyone, but that show is, I understand, small in comparison to some others. What impressed me was that people encouraged each other to try out their nibs and pens. Lots of knowledge was shared; I so enjoyed talking with everyone. So maybe it depends in part on the show you go to. Could it be that some shows are "friendlier" than others?
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    Default Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    As someone who has gone to many shows, I've notice a difference between collectors and users. Though no one has ever been rude to me, I've notice some of the older men are not interested in sharing their passion for vintage pens.

    First, I've never been to a show where I haven't felt welcomed and made friends. Of course, I'm chatty Kathy and can chew the ears off wood. With every show I keep developing deep friendships and some are vintage pen lovers. That said......

    I'm a user/modern pens, but can appreciate collectors and their love for vintage pens. At most shows, I hang with users who are frustrated with the lack integration of pen, paper and ink into shows.

    We love small pen makers - brooks, fisher, FC. We love wonderful paper - there was a huge rush to Bung Box booth in DC 2015 for the paper they brought. We are completely nuts for ink.

    There's a strong passion in the group for creating art - drawing, use of colors and pen paling......and mean CREATING. Take Hobonichi, there's a huge following of people who use their fountain pens to create daily art in this planner.

    I met a man at the LA show who is exploring bringing unusual Japanese paper goods to America...most of it usable with fountain pens. I discussed with him about having a meet up with us "user" to learn and explore his knowledge in DC. I shared with my pen friends and there was a lot of enthusiasm.

    So, I can understand why collectors would feel we are a pain in the ass. We're not interested in the history of abc vintage pen. And yes, I've seen some of the users abuse flex nibs for the sake of "creating art" or boosting ego. There's an asshole in every group.

    The hobby is developing a big branch that varies from the "old timers". Best part of this....the hobby continues to live and thrive for the next generation to grab onto.

    Can we integrate? Not sure. Each facet is so different.

    BTW: it was great you meet you Jon.
    Last edited by Crazyorange; February 21st, 2017 at 07:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Onogaro View Post
    My experience of pen shows is limited, but I can say that the reason that I've gone to them has only partly been for the sake of seeing pens and inks and papers (quite a bit of which you can find online); I went to meet up with people and experience community, which I think I found at the Dallas Pen Show (the only one I've gone to so far). I have to say it was a delightful experience both times. I had found a place where I could "get my geek on." Honestly, I don't think I had had such a fun time in -- well, maybe ever! It was like nothing else. This last time, I hung out a lot with caribbean skye, who seems to know everybody, and sharmon, and we met up with people in the evenings who were newer to pens and some who really knew their pens. It seemed to me that most were users, though a few were also collectors. I didn't notice any snobbery from anyone, but that show is, I understand, small in comparison to some others. What impressed me was that people encouraged each other to try out their nibs and pens. Lots of knowledge was shared; I so enjoyed talking with everyone. So maybe it depends in part on the show you go to. Could it be that some shows are "friendlier" than others?
    Looks like the only person whom you didn't bump into was... me

    It's actually very easy to bump into me, I gave a tour to first-time pen-show attendees every *dang* hour last September, this year if I can't recruit a volunteer, I'll dial it down to every 2 hours. That will give me time to actually find some good vintage pens at the show.
    - Will
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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    I personally have had a mixed bag of experiences... but overwhelmingly (90%) have been or ended in a positive manner.

    I will agree that I have been to a vintage table at a pen show labelled as the Sheaffer expert. I presented a pen and explained that it was my granddads and I wanted to know more about it, with wild crazy excited eyes... the response... "Oh, this is just a cheap touchdown filler, nothing special really". Wow, no real details, didn't look at it for more than 3 seconds, didn't want to tell me about the pen, the years it was possibly made or any other details... and after that response I didn't want to ask. Maybe I caught him at a bad time, maybe he knew I wasn't a sale... I don't know. So I went away and did some internet research to find out the details for myself.

    However, at the same show I asked the Parker expert to tell me about my Granddad's 45 Flighter and he flew into an excited tornado with details and information overload. He was excited that I was interested. He showed me other pens from around the same time and how to tell the differences between the model years... I will never forget that time or conversation for exactly the opposite reason I won't forget the first.
    Sam O

    "A fountain pen with a bad nib is like a Ferrari with a flat tyre..." - Brian Gray, Edison pens

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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    Sorry, I should add, I think there is a conversation and discussion to be had.

    It isn't confrontational, it is a sharing of what and why we love what we love. I am a modern user, but love to talk to vintage collectors or sellers, Pens have a history, a story that can lift a pen above being just a tool. But because of this I typically stick to tool pens as that is how I use them, a "writing tool".

    I think most of the animosity (which is admittedly few and far between!) is usually due to either a "misunderstanding" or a "miscommunication". We all have enthusiasm, and as Jon says, some of us have it for all types and makes of pen... and all we really want is for others to share that expansive passion and understand both sides of the curtain.

    That's my 100 yen worth anyway
    Sam O

    "A fountain pen with a bad nib is like a Ferrari with a flat tyre..." - Brian Gray, Edison pens

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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    Quote Originally Posted by mhosea View Post
    I'm not sure it is interesting to say, but I've been to a few pen shows, and they weren't a social events for me. I didn't meet up with old friends or make new ones. I did look for opportunities to socialize, but I guess I wasn't focused enough on that, or perhaps my INTP-ness impinged. Basically I shopped for pens. I went to a gun show once and had exactly the same experience (though I didn't buy any guns that day, just a nice hand-made leather belt ).
    I've been to the LA Pen Show for a few years running now but mostly on the Sunday public day. Twice I was able to make it to some of the Saturday seminars, which were very informative. (Unfortunately, I had other obligations this past Saturday.). I've found that most folks are very friendly and willing to chat but I'm painfully shy. It's extremely hard for me to start a conversation. I will pass by tables and be interested in knowing more about a couple of pens that are clearly for sale or trade but, truthfully, I know that I am not going to purchase. If there's no price tag on the pen, it feels like the person running the table has put the onus on me, the painfully shy window shopper, to open up the conversation and that idea crashes like a lead balloon. I've been lucky enough to learn some great stuff at a couple of tables. In all cases, the person behind the table has started the conversation. My current opinion is that a price tag acts a conversation starter -- even if the tag says something like "TBD". I've read in some places that the presence of a price tag is one indicator of a divide between the "new guard" and the "old guard" although it's probably more accurate to separate the groups as "style 1" and "style 2".

    A related question for folks behind the tables: how irritating is it to deal with window shoppers? I know that you want to close deals but I don't have nearly enough money to purchase everything that catches my eye! Is it really that appealing for a dealer to chat about 1 pen to someone who clearly isn't going to pull the trigger when that dealer has hundreds of pens on display?

    Next year, I hope to be more social at the LA Pen Show but it's going to require Herculean effort on my part. Better start gearing up now, I think! :-)

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    Default Re: Navigating The Waters Of Change: The Old And The New World of Pens, Online & Off

    [QUOTE=Empty_of_Clouds;200355]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    I understand this, and please don't think I am having a go at you or anybody else specifically.
    I call BS: "So when a person like Altec Green (who I am sure is really a nice guy) posts a report it comes across as "it's a great show, and look at the tens of thousands of dollar's worth of pens I bought" kind of thing and here's my two fingers for your examination. " ["hoovering" reference deleted]

    Call it as you see it, but don't tell us a reference to a proctology exam is meant to be a term of endearment.

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