On the Subject of FPN, Censorship, and Community

[HughC]

In your opinion....I find the comparison quiet funny....and to the point. That point is that commonly accepted rights in both places don't exist and both run in a dictatorial style. Those very rights you and I have in our everyday life like the right to question a decision. Wim ends many PMs with "no discussion will be entered into ( or like)"..... You can defend Wim as much as you like but being blind to the obvious defies belief.

No one is blind to that fact or practice but no one is a Natural Born FPNer, no one is prevented from leaving FPN, no one is being forced to join FPN, no one is being censored at all except when on the platform called FPN and if you find those comparable to North Korea I must wonder.

You can visit N. Korea....got a brand spanking new International airport btw...just as you can visit FPN....it's a simple comparison to highlight the way FPN is run. If you don't like the comparison that's not my problem.

[Farmboy]

If history repeats itself, a law firm was involved with the notification to remove the content.

[B]Farmboy..you may remember this....'Tis true and actual..not imagined..alleged.....
From Statement re Settlement Montblanc.....

Montblanc and Mr._____ ________ have resolved the lawsuit brought by Montblanc
concerning the.....In which Mr._____ ________ apologizes for any harm he may
have caused to the Montblanc Brand and Montblanc trademarks.....

Fred
nihil sequitur geminis ex particularibus unquam

Fred,

Yes we most likely refer to the same incident. I actually read the printed letter at a pen gathering in celebration of the suit being dismissed. Most here are likely not aware of the incident to which we refer and as such do not believe MB would engage in such tactics to protect the "brand" and as such the leap to MB paid for censorship keeps coming up.

Todd

[SIR]

In your opinion....I find the comparison quiet funny....and to the point. That point is that commonly accepted rights in both places don't exist and both run in a dictatorial style. Those very rights you and I have in our everyday life like the right to question a decision. Wim ends many PMs with "no discussion will be entered into ( or like)"..... You can defend Wim as much as you like but being blind to the obvious defies belief.

What's wrong with this approach to the rules? I have the same approach in my classroom: my rules are not open to debate except from my superior. I give my students who question them one polite reminder, and if they persist I remove them from my classroom, especially if they are not polite or are questioning a rule that has been reinforced several times already. It is not fair minded or reasonable to term this "dictatorial." Households and schools and churches and villages have always had rules and expectations like this. It is not "dictatorial."

Because we didn't go to FPN to receive lessons, and we don't appreciate being treated as a lower class.
To be honest, I really don't care - it just amazes me that some people genuinely believe such attitudes are acceptable today - it's just another form of abuse, like religious courts operating in a secular society it has all the hallmarks of religious mania.

[Sandy Fry]

I still don't get what all the fuss is about. If you don't like FPN then just don't go there!

It reminds me of when I was a kid. Always spent the entire day outside with my friends playing soccer. Every now and again an argument would break out and then the inevitable would happen...the offended kid would say " I am going home and it's my ball and I am taking it home with me! ". This of course ruined it for everyone but there was an easy solution...go get another ball! Did the kid who took the ball away ever get to play with us again? Of course he did. We all make mistakes right? Should we just all vilify the FPN owner for running things the way he sees fit for his business?

The owner at FPN can do as he pleases. Again, if you don't like his practices just don't go there. I still go there. I still gain some knowledge there. I really don't care how the owner runs his forum. Don't know him. Won't ever meet him. We won't ever be friends. I really don't care if I ever get banned from there, or here for that matter, as this is a "hobbyist" forum for pens for goodness sake. This is not a political arena and whatever goes on at FPN or FPGeeks is not going to affect my life in the slightest little bit.

As an aside. We are on 30+ pages of this and still the solution seems simple to me. If you don't like the business practices at FPN don't go there. Problem solved!

David

[HughC]

In your opinion....I find the comparison quiet funny....and to the point. That point is that commonly accepted rights in both places don't exist and both run in a dictatorial style. Those very rights you and I have in our everyday life like the right to question a decision. Wim ends many PMs with "no discussion will be entered into ( or like)"..... You can defend Wim as much as you like but being blind to the obvious defies belief.

What's wrong with this approach to the rules? I have the same approach in my classroom: my rules are not open to debate except from my superior. I give my students who question them one polite reminder, and if they persist I remove them from my classroom, especially if they are not polite or are questioning a rule that has been reinforced several times already. It is not fair minded or reasonable to term this "dictatorial." Households and schools and churches and villages have always had rules and expectations like this. It is not "dictatorial."

We're adults to start with. We have expectations to be treat with a degree of respect....you know...like an explanation of exactly what sin you've committed, a right to answer the accusations....sort of what most think of as everyday rights. So if you make some really stupid rule in your classroom by simple oversight there's no way a student can point it out ? So as a teacher you believe you're always right? So as a teacher you like to stifle open minded discussion ? Do you bother to explain your rules and why they exist ? Glad to know you're never wrong btw!! In case you and Jar hadn't bothered to read the whole topic below is post #6. Please read and understand I've never deviated from what I said then in that post, just reinforce the obvious.

Given the now very commercial aspect of FPN there's every chance MB and FPN have a financial arrangement, one that benefits Wim ( who probably makes a reasonable bit out of FPN) and MB in showcasing their product in a good light. Money dictates what stays or goes. Is it right or wrong ? There's nothing wrong with Wim running FPN with an eye to profit, there's nothing wrong with him moderating as he pleases because he owns FPN. The error is in users thinking it's a fair and open/unbiased forum, it isn't.

Regards
Hugh

[HughC]

I still don't get what all the fuss is about. If you don't like FPN then just don't go there!

It reminds me of when I was a kid. Always spent the entire day outside with my friends playing soccer. Every now and again an argument would break out and then the inevitable would happen...the offended kid would say " I am going home and it's my ball and I am taking it home with me! ". This of course ruined it for everyone but there was an easy solution...go get another ball! Did the kid who took the ball away ever get to play with us again? Of course he did. We all make mistakes right? Should we just all vilify the FPN owner for running things the way he sees fit for his business?

The owner at FPN can do as he pleases. Again, if you don't like his practices just don't go there. I still go there. I still gain some knowledge there. I really don't care how the owner runs his forum. Don't know him. Won't ever meet him. We won't ever be friends. I really don't care if I ever get banned from there, or here for that matter, as this is a "hobbyist" forum for pens for goodness sake. This is not a political arena and whatever goes on at FPN or FPGeeks is not going to affect my life in the slightest little bit.

As an aside. We are on 30+ pages of this and still the solution seems simple to me. If you don't like the business practices at FPN don't go there. Problem solved!

David

Well 660+ post and 23,000+ views should answer your doubts about the interest in the topic, and you just posted in it as well....

[HughC]

If history repeats itself, a law firm was involved with the notification to remove the content.

[B]Farmboy..you may remember this....'Tis true and actual..not imagined..alleged.....
From Statement re Settlement Montblanc.....

Montblanc and Mr._____ ________ have resolved the lawsuit brought by Montblanc
concerning the.....In which Mr._____ ________ apologizes for any harm he may
have caused to the Montblanc Brand and Montblanc trademarks.....

Fred
nihil sequitur geminis ex particularibus unquam

Fred,

Yes we most likely refer to the same incident. I actually read the printed letter at a pen gathering in celebration of the suit being dismissed. Most here are likely not aware of the incident to which we refer and as such do not believe MB would engage in such tactics to protect the "brand" and as such the leap to MB paid for censorship keeps coming up.

Todd

So are you suggesting that when Wim said a "friendly request (or like)" he was telling a "porkie"?

[pengeezer]

Thank you for thinking that I'm a young folk. I am young-at-heart, you know. I never knew good manners meant blind obedience to tyrannical authority. But if being subservient to whimsical and arbitrary behavior of others helps get you along in life, well, "bless your heart."

If I understood Jar correctly, the participants on FPN are guests, and Wim is the homeowner. Neither Texan nor Virginian would hold that "good manners" meant "blind obedience to tyrannical authority", but it does imply respect for the homeowner while one is visiting, regardless of how "whimsical" the homeowner might be might be. One's reactions within the home might be fundamentally different than ones reactions outside it.

All analogies fail at some level, however, and this one is no exception. The value of an internet forum (as opposed to a blog or some other type of site) flows from its membership. The best-run site with no members to contribute is nothing and will remain nothing until members arrive. Consequently, in some respects it is very unlike a home and more like a public venue, say a theater or restaurant.

Actually it's a company operated forum, a business.

When in a business good manners suggest one should behave in a manner as requested by the owners and managers.

I have no problem with that if the treatment is in line with accepted social standards, I suggest Wim and co. deviate from the accepted norm of behavior regularly. It's a business with poor customer relations and I suggest not a model to replicate. I also suggest the business owners need to show their customers some respect as well, again this is often not the case on FPN.

Sounds like a hubrious Trump model to me.



John

[pengeezer]

In your opinion....I find the comparison quiet funny....and to the point. That point is that commonly accepted rights in both places don't exist and both run in a dictatorial style. Those very rights you and I have in our everyday life like the right to question a decision. Wim ends many PMs with "no discussion will be entered into ( or like)"..... You can defend Wim as much as you like but being blind to the obvious defies belief.

What's wrong with this approach to the rules? I have the same approach in my classroom: my rules are not open to debate except from my superior. I give my students who question them one polite reminder, and if they persist I remove them from my classroom, especially if they are not polite or are questioning a rule that has been reinforced several times already. It is not fair minded or reasonable to term this "dictatorial." Households and schools and churches and villages have always had rules and expectations like this. It is not "dictatorial."

Even the best teacher makes mistakes. Putting ones self on a level of "I don't make a mistake" or not admitting
to making mistakes does not endear the students to the teacher; rather like a parent that admits to their
children that they made a mistake--that endears the student to the teacher. BTW,nothing wrong with
having rules in a classroom;they are necessary as a foundation and I think that the students expect that.
Being inflexible with the rules in an "across-the-board" manner,however,is indicative of a dictatorial `tude.



John

[SIR]

If you don't like the business practices at FPN don't go there. Problem solved!

Quite, but it is our prerogative to advise others in advance of the treatment they may be likely to receive there; if anything we say is untrue then sue us - which, incidentally, is what FPN should have said to MB.

[RNHC]

I find most Japanese pens in general to be less interesting and far more boring than the pens from Europe and the US.

I tend to agree except "far more" boring seem a bit hyperbolic. I do find them more boring with their too conservative designs but, on the other hand, I find many European pens overly ornate and busy. There is a handful of Japanese pens that I find interesting like the sleek integrated nibbed pens like Pilot M90 and carbon bodied pen from Tombow - and, of course, Nakaya pens.

[TSherbs]

In your opinion....I find the comparison quiet funny....and to the point. That point is that commonly accepted rights in both places don't exist and both run in a dictatorial style. Those very rights you and I have in our everyday life like the right to question a decision. Wim ends many PMs with "no discussion will be entered into ( or like)"..... You can defend Wim as much as you like but being blind to the obvious defies belief.

What's wrong with this approach to the rules? I have the same approach in my classroom: my rules are not open to debate except from my superior. I give my students who question them one polite reminder, and if they persist I remove them from my classroom, especially if they are not polite or are questioning a rule that has been reinforced several times already. It is not fair minded or reasonable to term this "dictatorial." Households and schools and churches and villages have always had rules and expectations like this. It is not "dictatorial."

Even the best teacher makes mistakes. Putting ones self on a level of "I don't make a mistake" or not admitting
to making mistakes does not endear the students to the teacher; rather like a parent that admits to their
children that they made a mistake--that endears the student to the teacher. BTW,nothing wrong with
having rules in a classroom;they are necessary as a foundation and I think that the students expect that.
Being inflexible with the rules in an "across-the-board" manner,however,is indicative of a dictatorial `tude.



John

Rules are meant to be "across the board." That is what makes them fair and just rather than capricious and unjust.

[TSherbs]

In your opinion....I find the comparison quiet funny....and to the point. That point is that commonly accepted rights in both places don't exist and both run in a dictatorial style. Those very rights you and I have in our everyday life like the right to question a decision. Wim ends many PMs with "no discussion will be entered into ( or like)"..... You can defend Wim as much as you like but being blind to the obvious defies belief.

What's wrong with this approach to the rules? I have the same approach in my classroom: my rules are not open to debate except from my superior. I give my students who question them one polite reminder, and if they persist I remove them from my classroom, especially if they are not polite or are questioning a rule that has been reinforced several times already. It is not fair minded or reasonable to term this "dictatorial." Households and schools and churches and villages have always had rules and expectations like this. It is not "dictatorial."

Because we didn't go to FPN to receive lessons, and we don't appreciate being treated as a lower class.
To be honest, I really don't care - it just amazes me that some people genuinely believe such attitudes are acceptable today - it's just another form of abuse, like religious courts operating in a secular society it has all the hallmarks of religious mania.

I consider this hyperbole. I don't know what else to say. I feel like you have just made my point for me.

[RNHC]

Rules are meant to be "across the board." That is what makes them fair and just rather than capricious and unjust.

Rules may be fair but the application of the rules is definitely not fair over at FPN. It depends greatly on the moderators and the particular mood they're in or whatever agenda Wim is pushing.

[kazoolaw]

Fred,

Yes we most likely refer to the same incident. I actually read the printed letter at a pen gathering in celebration of the suit being dismissed. Most here are likely not aware of the incident to which we refer and as such do not believe MB would engage in such tactics to protect the "brand" and as such the leap to MB paid for censorship keeps coming up.

Todd[/QUOTE]

Let's see: the suit by MB it has the exclusive right to use triple cap bands (!!), for displaying a MB pen with a non-MB overlay, the suit against Cross about refills...

MB is no stranger to litigation. If you think that a hue and cry from the pen community provides immunity to suit you are naive.

And, on another note, you can see that the subject of the MB vs Roger Cromwell litigation FPN was raised by Don Lavin, the thread paused for review, and then re-opened for comment. After the suit was thoroughly discussed, and the case was settled the thread was closed.

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/fo...-by-montblanc/

gary

[Freddie]

If history repeats itself, a law firm was involved with the notification to remove the content.

[B]Farmboy..you may remember this....'Tis true and actual..not imagined..alleged.....
From Statement re Settlement Montblanc.....

Montblanc and Mr._____ ________ have resolved the lawsuit brought by Montblanc
concerning the.....In which Mr._____ ________ apologizes for any harm he may
have caused to the Montblanc Brand and Montblanc trademarks.....

Fred
nihil sequitur geminis ex particularibus unquam

Fred,

Yes we most likely refer to the same incident. I actually read the printed letter at a pen gathering in celebration of the suit being dismissed. Most here are likely not aware of the incident to which we refer and as such do not believe MB would engage in such tactics to protect the "brand" and as such the leap to MB paid for censorship keeps coming up.

Todd

Todd.

Affirmative.

Fred

[TSherbs]

Rules are meant to be "across the board." That is what makes them fair and just rather than capricious and unjust.

Rules may be fair but the application of the rules is definitely not fair over at FPN. It depends greatly on the moderators and the particular mood they're in or whatever agenda Wim is pushing.

This seems uncharitable to say of any moderator. Perhaps you could send me a link of a thread with this kind of moodiness or agenda that Wim is pushing. I have many more posts over there and have never seen such a thing. The only time that I have seen posts disappear is when they take on the vitriol that I find more often over here. I assume that you are not arguing on behalf of uncensored vitriol and ad hominem attacks.

[HughC]

Rules are meant to be "across the board." That is what makes them fair and just rather than capricious and unjust.

Rules may be fair but the application of the rules is definitely not fair over at FPN. It depends greatly on the moderators and the particular mood they're in or whatever agenda Wim is pushing.

This seems uncharitable to say of any moderator. Perhaps you could send me a link of a thread with this kind of moodiness or agenda that Wim is pushing. I have many more posts over there and have never seen such a thing. The only time that I have seen posts disappear is when they take on the vitriol that I find more often over here. I assume that you are not arguing on behalf of uncensored vitriol and ad hominem attacks.

You don't see a lot of what happens because it's either invisiblised, edit out or done by PM. That is why it always seems so "rosie" and why you can't be directed to posts where it's occurred. Wim has banned some people for the most trivial reasons, actually one comes to mind where there was no reason ...a question was asked iirc !! (that person has posted in this topic). Unfortunately there have been countless examples of poor moderation by some, likewise a number of moderators have been of the highest standard. Wim sets the standard....and it's rather low.

[HughC]

Rules are meant to be "across the board." That is what makes them fair and just rather than capricious and unjust.

In theory sounds good, in practice it's not. You only have to look at the judicial system that applies societies rules (laws) to see that different outcomes are often delivered for the same offense because each is unique. The reality is "across the board" rules with no flexibility are dictatorial by nature.

[Hawk]

I find most Japanese pens in general to be less interesting and far more boring than the pens from Europe and the US.

I tend to agree except "far more" boring seem a bit hyperbolic. I do find them more boring with their too conservative designs but, on the other hand, I find many European pens overly ornate and busy. There is a handful of Japanese pens that I find interesting like the sleek integrated nibbed pens like Pilot M90 and carbon bodied pen from Tombow - and, of course, Nakaya pens.

Pelikan isn't overly ornate and busy. They are coming out of their conservative designs with some of their new pens while retaining some conservative elements. Italian pens may be more like what you are refering to.